Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[neopolitancrazy]

Hi Jennifer,

Until you know the things below, it is very difficult to choose
a breeding plan. Let's take a stab at answering them:

What are the names of the classic strains in US Dorkings today?
(these would be the 3-5 "foundation strains" from which the other strains sprang)

How are they related to each other?
( Usually foundation strains spring from a fountainhead , be it an import; a single exceptional bird, or?)

What color are you breeding?
(Is it a rare color or an established one?).

In the tradition of the breed, can it be bred to another color, if so which one(s)?
( In a breed's history there are "acceptable" color crosses and others "just not done".)

Which strain(s) do you have and how are they related to each other?
( this is important so you can figure out Percentages of Inbreeding & Line Inheritance.)

Best,
Karen

well, I am not Jennifer, but this also applies to me, and I am not sure I know these answers. I would appreciate anyone knowledgeable about Dorkings correcting my knowledge deficits.

1. Classic strains-Urch, (contributed to McMurray strain,); TIce (became Troxel birds,); Horstman; Wetterstroem. I am very unsure of this.
2. Interrelated-as above
3. Color-Silver Grey, established and recognized in SOP, still rare.
4. Not aware of any acceptable color crosses.
5. I have Urch and McMurray birds.

eta: I am currently very concerned about poor hatchability. This season I have hatched about 20% of the eggs I placed in the incubator. Essentially all were fertile. The individual hatches have produced between 0 and 62.5% hatches, as I have tinkered with temp/humidity/ventilation. Hatches improved once I got the air cells to appropriate size and added daily cooling-off spells. I am currently looking at possible dietary changes and doing lots of test matings looking for pairs that nick, or individuals that throw non-vigorous offspring. After discussion on other threads and other forums, this is a Dorking-wide problem, not specific to a region, breeder, line or feed ration. Suggestions?

 

[bnjrob]

Are there any characteristics conformation-wise I should use when selecting my breeding stock, such as perhaps greater width across the vent?

Do you have a Standard of Perfection from the APA? If not - you need to get one. That is going to help you a lot.

Plymouth Rocks are dual purpose birds - so they are not going to be quite as good layers as a breed that was made to be an egg layer, and they aren't going to be as meaty as a meat breed. But you can improve them all around and as long as you don't have unrealistic expectations of them, you can do really well with them. Since they are dual purpose, you're going to want to work on both egg and meat characteristics. Breeding toward the SOP can help.

For info that is not in the SOP book, I would tell you to go to the Livestock Conservancy for their great information on examining your birds for meat and egg production. They have some great stuff about checking for keel depth and pelvic bone width and really getting a better handle on the more utilitarian parts of your birds.

I would also recommend that you read through old poultry books. There is a good bit of information that is still very relevant to breeding today. You can go to www.archive.org and get TONS of free antique books/magazines on poultry breeding and husbandry to help you. Hathitrust also has a good collection of free old literature, although you can't download full books as easily as you can by using the archive website.

Much of what you want to know is general good poultry breeding and husbandry and not just specific to Plymouth Rocks. But you will also find some old books on just Plymouth Rocks.

To give you just a general idea when looking at things for good egg laying, you're going to want birds that do not have pinched tails. When you look at them from the top, you should not see a significant narrowing of their body from their shoulders to their tail. And when viewed from behind, you will see their tail feathers spread apart more, rather than touching so much or even overlapping. You want good space between their pelvic bones and a nice wide, pliable abdomen. And then of course things like hatching from the largest eggs, hatching from hens that lay earlier/more often than other hens.

There is a ton of things to look for and information you need if you are serious about doing this - more than can really be posted online in a forum setting. Joining the breed club may also get you some good info in a more concise format to get you acquainted with what you need to know, so you can figure out what you need to do more work on. Often I find it's a case of I don't know what I don't know, so I have to keep my eyes and ears open until I hit on something and think "Man I wish I had known that sooner" - but then once I see someone comment on something and give me a hint of something I didn't know about, I can go research it and start incorporating it into my breeding and husbandry.

 

[ronott1]

well, I am not Jennifer, but this also applies to me, and I am not sure I know these answers. I would appreciate anyone knowledgeable about Dorkings correcting my knowledge deficits.

1. Classic strains-Urch, (contributed to McMurray strain,); TIce (became Troxel birds,); Horstman; Wetterstroem. I am very unsure of this.
2. Interrelated-as above
3. Color-Silver Grey, established and recognized in SOP, still rare.
4. Not aware of any acceptable color crosses.
5. I have Urch and McMurray birds.

eta: I am currently very concerned about poor hatchability. This season I have hatched about 20% of the eggs I placed in the incubator. Essentially all were fertile. The individual hatches have produced between 0 and 62.5% hatches, as I have tinkered with temp/humidity/ventilation. Hatches improved once I got the air cells to appropriate size and added daily cooling-off spells. I am currently looking at possible dietary changes and doing lots of test matings looking for pairs that nick, or individuals that throw non-vigorous offspring. After discussion on other threads and other forums, this is a Dorking-wide problem, not specific to a region, breeder, line or feed ration. Suggestions?

Thanks for the information!

This is the third year that I have been hatching SG Dorkings. Fertility has been the biggest issue. The Breeder is using the same Cock Bird for mating individual hens. The Fertile eggs hatch fairly well but it is discouraging to have one hen with all clears. Then a different hen has only one egg set for incubating and it is fertile and makes it into the Hatcher on day 18.

The SG Dorkng eggs are incubating along with Dels and they are very fertile and hatch like champs! Same incubator, same settings, same feed and etc.

We are incubating for vigor--no helping allowed! Hopefully this will all pay off next year after two years of culling for vigor at hatch.

 

[Lacy Blues]

You've probably thought of this as you've been breeding way longer than I have. If you can find a hen that lays a lot and mark the chicks as being from her, a cock from that hen bred back to her or to another that lays a lot (or both) that also has good hatchability should go a long way toward making some headway, shouldn't it? Its just a thought. I understand the problem, wish I could be of more help.

 

[ronott1]

You've probably thought of this as you've been breeding way longer than I have. If you can find a hen that lays a lot and mark the chicks as being from her, a cock from that hen bred back to her or to another that lays a lot (or both) that also has good hatchability should go a long way toward making some headway, shouldn't it? Its just a thought. I understand the problem, wish I could be of more help.

Yes, the chicks are all hatched with individual ids and the Breeder is keeping records.

I really hope it helps! SG Dorkings are having problems like this for a lot of people.

 

[MagicChicken]

Looking for some insight before I make a culling decision. Small size and narrow tail width are both issues in my particular birds. I have a choice between the following birds:

Number 1 is very close to standard weight for his breed. He has broad shoulders, but his back looks like a triangle from above. Tail width is ok, not great. His proportions make his tail look narrower and his back look shorter than they really are.

Number 2 weighs about 1.5 pounds less than Number 1. (Both birds are six months old. Standard cockerel weight for this breed is 8 pounds. They are still growing.) Number 2's back is a consistent width the whole length. His tail width is the same as Number 1. His back looks longer because he is better proportioned, but it is actually about the same length as the other bird's back.

In all other respects the birds are pretty similar.

I like Number 1's size but his shape annoys me. I like Number 2's proportions but wish he was bigger. One of them has to go. Which would you keep, and why?

Sarah

PS: The phrase "his shape annoys me" is giving me a big clue. I still want some other insight before either bird hits the chopping block. I'd keep them both but need the space. There are 15-20 younger cockerels of more certain heritage coming along behind them who will need to be separated from the pullets soon.

 

[NanaKat]

Broody hens moved to cages and hen cooing their eggs:
Black Wyandotte Cochin/Wyandotte hen bred for brooding


Columbian Wyandotte has raised one clutch already Blue Wyandotte


Belgian d'Anver Bantam


Two Cochin hens refused to sit in their cages, so will give them a few days in these nests in their coop and then move them nest box and all to a floor pen in the barn. The White hen next to the Splash is giving growls to force the hen to let her sit in the nest to lay even with an extra nest in the background. All eggs are marked and dated so new eggs can be removed daily until the move.

 

[gjensen]

well, I am not Jennifer, but this also applies to me, and I am not sure I know these answers. I would appreciate anyone knowledgeable about Dorkings correcting my knowledge deficits.

1. Classic strains-Urch, (contributed to McMurray strain,); TIce (became Troxel birds,); Horstman; Wetterstroem. I am very unsure of this.
2. Interrelated-as above
3. Color-Silver Grey, established and recognized in SOP, still rare.
4. Not aware of any acceptable color crosses.
5. I have Urch and McMurray birds.

eta: I am currently very concerned about poor hatchability. This season I have hatched about 20% of the eggs I placed in the incubator. Essentially all were fertile. The individual hatches have produced between 0 and 62.5% hatches, as I have tinkered with temp/humidity/ventilation. Hatches improved once I got the air cells to appropriate size and added daily cooling-off spells. I am currently looking at possible dietary changes and doing lots of test matings looking for pairs that nick, or individuals that throw non-vigorous offspring. After discussion on other threads and other forums, this is a Dorking-wide problem, not specific to a region, breeder, line or feed ration. Suggestions?

What I would do is call Craig Russel, and explain your concerns. He knows what is out there better than anyone and he knows them better than anyone.

I would also want a Q and A with Yellow House, because he has built a quality flock in an especially rare variety.

I tend to think that there is enough here to work with. Dorkings are a rare breed, and quality examples are even more rare. I do think the genetic base is broad enough to turn things around. I would not be scared of getting some Sandhill birds and crossing varieties. I would only pick the varieties that match up best with the variety that I had. I would not be scared to do it. I think the difficult projects are the most interesting.

I would also be hatching in some larger numbers. If I had fifty cockerels running around on range, one of them could be the one to help me turn it around. I would make vigor a serious priority, and prefer that male or those females above all others. I think the more qty, the more variability. I would also raise them as naturally as possible.

I do not know what the best solution is. I would bet Mr. Russell does.

I do not think that the solution is in the feed.

 

[gjensen]

Looking for some insight before I make a culling decision. Small size and narrow tail width are both issues in my particular birds. I have a choice between the following birds:

Number 1 is very close to standard weight for his breed. He has broad shoulders, but his back looks like a triangle from above. Tail width is ok, not great. His proportions make his tail look narrower and his back look shorter than they really are.

Number 2 weighs about 1.5 pounds less than Number 1. (Both birds are six months old. Standard cockerel weight for this breed is 8 pounds. They are still growing.) Number 2's back is a consistent width the whole length. His tail width is the same as Number 1. His back looks longer because he is better proportioned, but it is actually about the same length as the other bird's back.

In all other respects the birds are pretty similar.

I like Number 1's size but his shape annoys me. I like Number 2's proportions but wish he was bigger. One of them has to go. Which would you keep, and why?

Sarah

PS: The phrase "his shape annoys me" is giving me a big clue. I still want some other insight before either bird hits the chopping block. I'd keep them both but need the space. There are 15-20 younger cockerels of more certain heritage coming along behind them who will need to be separated from the pullets soon.

Sarah, how old are they?

 

[BGMatt]

Looking for some insight before I make a culling decision. Small size and narrow tail width are both issues in my particular birds. I have a choice between the following birds:

Number 1 is very close to standard weight for his breed. He has broad shoulders, but his back looks like a triangle from above. Tail width is ok, not great. His proportions make his tail look narrower and his back look shorter than they really are.

Number 2 weighs about 1.5 pounds less than Number 1. (Both birds are six months old. Standard cockerel weight for this breed is 8 pounds. They are still growing.) Number 2's back is a consistent width the whole length. His tail width is the same as Number 1. His back looks longer because he is better proportioned, but it is actually about the same length as the other bird's back.

In all other respects the birds are pretty similar.

I like Number 1's size but his shape annoys me. I like Number 2's proportions but wish he was bigger. One of them has to go. Which would you keep, and why?

Sarah

PS: The phrase "his shape annoys me" is giving me a big clue. I still want some other insight before either bird hits the chopping block. I'd keep them both but need the space. There are 15-20 younger cockerels of more certain heritage coming along behind them who will need to be separated from the pullets soon.

If you have 15-20 more behind them to pick from, why keep either? They aren't what you want, keep moving along. Remember you'll only have what you tolerate, most people keep far far too many birds. Keep it simple, if you have more coming up and neither of these cockerels fit the bill, ditch them. I did that this year with my Leghorns, none of the first batch of cockerels had what I was looking for, so they all went away.