Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[3riverschick]

Sounds like you've got the best answer already Karen. Good luck with those birds and congratulations on being entrusted with an entire fantastic flock of birds.

Well it is kinda a scary responsibility. esp. with my limited number of years in poultry. Thank you all for your input. It really helps me feel confidant about my plans.
I will rehome the 5 of 6 egg flock birds and keep March. Then breed her to my best 2 cocks next season. If I continue to get cushions from her, I will rehome her.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[gjensen]

Lacy & Wisher, all I know to do is emphasize feather quality. I do not have any tips, but if anyone has any, I would listen. My logic says that if we do not have enough variability to emphasize it, then we have to go outside to get it. Lacy it sounds like you have some possible help in your pens now.
I do not know why I made that comment in my post, other than it has been on my mind. I have wondered if on some hang ups like this, if a pen or two devoted to the trait is not necessary. If in that pen, we should not fix that trait in order to "accumulate influence".

We have discussed what pre potent means. My position is that pre potency is familial influence. If I mated some of Walt's NHs with some mutts, the NHs influence would have more influence in the first generation than the mutts.

If I had (and I do) a problem with feather quality, but there was enough variability to pick a bird that had better feather than the rest . .. Should I set up a pen to emphasize that trait? I wonder if it would not make sense to breed especially close until that trait was fixed.
Anyways, once the majority of the offspring had good feather quality, a "prepotent" sire could be used in one of our main pens in order to improve that characteristic in a family. You could breed especially close in the side pen, because you are coming right back out of that pen anyways. Maybe even a brother and sister mating.

It is not difficult to improve a single simple trait if that is all you are trying to do, and you have something that is good regarding that trait. An example could be that I had a family of poorly marked tails in my hens, and by degree I was making painfully slow progress. If I could get a male from a family that had well marked tails, he would contribute marked improvement in a single generation. It is not just him that is influencing the improvement, but also the family behind him.
A problem could be at what cost did we make the improvement. Everything comes at a cost. It seams safer to do this on the side.

I have found that I can make fast progress with a single trait, but when the points of selection multiply, so does the time it takes to make progress. Obviously I cannot religiously devote myself to a single trait for four years. I can devote myself to fixing a trait in a side pen for four years.

Just this weekend's rambling thoughts. Maybe it will encourage a discussion.

 

[gjensen]

Well it is kinda a scary responsibility. esp. with my limited number of years in poultry. Thank you all for your input. It really helps me feel confidant about my plans.
I will rehome the 5 of 6 egg flock birds and keep March. Then breed her to my best 2 cocks next season. If I continue to get cushions from her, I will rehome her.
Best Regards,
Karen

Karen, when you started pairing up your birds, you started working on your own strain. Nothing has changed, except that your safety net has been removed. It sounds like that is motivating you. Maybe it is a good thing, even if you have to expand a little in the spring.

Good luck.

 

[Zanna]

I had two NH pullets and two cockerals at a show yesterday. One of the judges was able to take some time with me and go over my pullets. One looked much larger to me of the two. The judge said she was not. The flesh on the smaller looking one was much better, more desireable. The one looked like a bigger bird because her feathers were longer. This also gave her the look of a slight cushion and in many cases (not my bird) the look of a dropped wing. Both judges liked the smaller looking pullet better because of the shorter feathers and the meatier breast that you could only tell by hands on and she is, in fact, not smaller at all. Learned a ton!!!

 

[Lacy Blues]

In my feather pen, I had a male with two females. He was black and they were blue with only fair lacing but the best quality feathers that I had. I got several chicks from that pen and I'm waiting for them to grow up some more. I think I only have one male though. How that happened, I'm not sure. I did cull every black male that I had at the time on the advice of seasoned Andalusian breeders. I don't remember any being from this pen but my memory is fairly faulty anymore.

The one male that I have is a pitiful example of what an "Andalusian" should look like as he has almost no lacing. He has very nice type though so I'll wait on him to mature. I'm hoping that I have some dark hens from some other cross that has really nice feather type that I can use with him. I think I have one or two blue females from the same pen whose lacing is almost as non-existent as his and the blue is quite light. I got a ton of black females though so I'll definitely put him over some of them to try and fix that trait. Maybe I'll get some real blue birds next year with improved lacing that also have some very fine feathers on them.

I figured I would need to keep a feather pen going on the side anyway. Four years hu? Hopefully I see some progress when I look at these offspring at some point.

 

[gjensen]

In my feather pen, I had a male with two females. He was black and they were blue with only fair lacing but the best quality feathers that I had. I got several chicks from that pen and I'm waiting for them to grow up some more. I think I only have one male though. How that happened, I'm not sure. I did cull every black male that I had at the time on the advice of seasoned Andalusian breeders. I don't remember any being from this pen but my memory is fairly faulty anymore.

The one male that I have is a pitiful example of what an "Andalusian" should look like as he has almost no lacing. He has very nice type though so I'll wait on him to mature. I'm hoping that I have some dark hens from some other cross that has really nice feather type that I can use with him. I think I have one or two blue females from the same pen whose lacing is almost as non-existent as his and the blue is quite light. I got a ton of black females though so I'll definitely put him over some of them to try and fix that trait. Maybe I'll get some real blue birds next year with improved lacing that also have some very fine feathers on them.

I figured I would need to keep a feather pen going on the side anyway. Four years hu? Hopefully I see some progress when I look at these offspring at some point.

Everything I wrote was "hypothetical". The idea based on fixing individual traits where the birds (or bird) would be "pre potent" for that individual trait. I could see myself using the method at some point, and on a certain level I already am. It was not meant to suggest it for anything in particular. I used feather quality to illustrate.

Otherwise it was just talk. I get looking at my birds and thinking sometimes. I am in a situation with one breed where so much needs work. In my situation, I picture having to do some work on the side in order to improve particular points.

I have made some progress. On some points I have not. I am stuck on a couple points where I wonder if there is enough variability. Now that I have grown out a few generations, I believe I can see what I am going to need help with.

 

[Lacy Blues]

I didn't mean to imply that I was receiving "instruction" I too was just thinking out loud and sharing a bit of what is going on here. I hadn't given much thought to how long it would take so I appreciate the possible time span... gives me more to think about.

 

[gjensen]

I didn't mean to imply that I was receiving "instruction" I too was just thinking out loud and sharing a bit of what is going on here. I hadn't given much thought to how long it would take so I appreciate the possible time span... gives me more to think about.

If bred close I believe you can make a pen "pre potent" for many traits in as little as four years, but could be more. It would depend on your start, the bird's background, the misc. variables and how tight you can get. A brother/sister mating or two would help. The flip side is we can make the pen "pre potent" for things we do not want them to be. I would not be concerned with inbreeding too close, if I was coming right back out of the pen. I would only be reluctant if they were already too close.
One selection point is a lot faster than 4, 8, or 12.

When restoring a rare breed, or introducing a trait, I think we under emphasize what we can do on the side.

I do think a effort of this sort could be used to improve a variety of things that we get stuck on. A side pen could be a good way to introduce a trait that was brought in from the outside.

 

[Lacy Blues]

" A brother sister mating or two..."

Is this meant as more than one cross between pairs of siblings in the same year? Or crossing brothers with sisters for more than one year. Would it be advisable to do it for more than one year? I would worry that they would become too close. My feather pen though, had a very distantly related male so it might be safe to try it. I don't want to lose size. I've got good size in my flock but last breeding season I had to use a male that had the bantam gene over my large fowl females and apparently he will pass that gene to all of his offspring. Getting that out of my large fowl flock will be an interesting challenge. I also had a male with no bantam gene so I have choices that I need to remember when it comes time to choose. Luckily, the no bantam gene male with the females I chose for him have given me some really really nice looking offspring. I can hardly wait for them to mature and fill out!

 

[gjensen]

" A brother sister mating or two..."

Is this meant as more than one cross between pairs of siblings in the same year? Or crossing brothers with sisters for more than one year. Would it be advisable to do it for more than one year? I would worry that they would become too close. My feather pen though, had a very distantly related male so it might be safe to try it. I don't want to lose size. I've got good size in my flock but last breeding season I had to use a male that had the bantam gene over my large fowl females and apparently he will pass that gene to all of his offspring. Getting that out of my large fowl flock will be an interesting challenge. I also had a male with no bantam gene so I have choices that I need to remember when it comes time to choose. Luckily, the no bantam gene male with the females I chose for him have given me some really really nice looking offspring. I can hardly wait for them to mature and fill out!

Unless there is a concern otherwise I would not be afraid of a brother and sister mating in a side pen. That is if you are trying to fix a trait, and if two siblings had what I wanted, I would use them together. There would be no faster way to fix it.
By two, I would mean in another generation if necessary, but once would generally be enough if it was followed by a mother x son, father x daughter that all had what you were looing for.

Keep in mind, I am discussing the topic of breeding especially tight for a reason. A single brother sister mating would not hurt you unless they already had problems or were already too closely bred. This is a hypothetical temporary pen where you will end up breeding back away and will have an increase of vigor in the initial outcross over than would you would have had otherwise.
It would not be advisable to make a practice of this in a family that you would continue with. It could however be a tool to fix something so that it had more influence when introduced to a family.

My thinking is based on the idea that not all traits are simple recessive or dominate traits. Some characteristics are a compilation of genes that have been accumulated by selection. A bird that has this characteristic(s) that comes from a family that is strong on this point will be more influential. In a rare breed that has no families strong on a particular point, possibly we could make a temporary one faster by this idea.

It is just a theory, but it is not without it's precedence. The commercial industry is built on a similar philosophy. To accumulate a compilation of genes related to production in a tightly bred group with the goal of crossing with another to gain the added benefit of hybrid vigor. Uniformity requires getting close, and close is more influential than random. We could get closer faster by incorporating a brother x sister mating into a side pen that is a terminal line anyways.

They say that it takes 5 years (generations) to breed back up to standard size. I have never done it myself. It sounds like that male may already be up to size.

I would like to see pictures of your birds when you are ready. I will send you a couple pictures of where I ended up this year.