Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[3riverschick]

Qty. of eggs will not tighten the feathers. Breeding birds for closer feathering is selecting those individuals that have it. How hard that is depends on how much variability there is in the offspring.

The surest route and fastest route, is the most direct route. We do not want to run out on a bunch of rabbit trails, and get lost doing it.

I didn't say that abut the eggs and feathers, Bob Blosl did.
Best,
Karen

 

[gjensen]

I didn't say that abut the eggs and feathers, Bob Blosl did.
Best,
Karen

And I am saying, respectfully, that it is not true. I did not want it to be a negative. I only thought of the many people that would read it and think that is what they had to do, and not even know how to do that. We would ask them in such a case, to learn two things. One that is multiform, and one that is not. One will only get you there, after you have been through the other and figured out you were going the wrong way.

You always want to go the most direct and sure route. I do not know much, but I am not going to try to get better tails by looking at their feet. I will select for better tails by selecting birds with better tails. If I am going to select for more eggs, the first thing I am going to do is start counting eggs.

That is not to say that there is never a link between one trait and another. There often is, but we need to be cautious in our observations. Links are not always links of necessity.

 

[gjensen]

I'm resisting all the advice to cross in something else. Besides the fact that I think it's too early for this project line, I don't really want to set things up so I can have a second breed going for long enough to know it well enough to create the best possible version of a third breed by combining those two, then keep all of three of them going separately ...

I do have issues with red bleeding through ... on pullets/hens. Careful inspection can find some "salmon" on some of the younger pullets, on some red feathers pop out just before POL, and after the first adult molt (18 months-ish) most of the hens grow various shades & textures of red/buff/brown on their backs where they should be white.

Both the females in my starter trio molted into buff barred backs after their first breeding season, so I worry it's terminal here. I didn't re-use either of those females. I'm acting as if it's not terminal, but how to best move forward is a bit of a head scratcher.

I have a couple of last year's breeders that seem to be coming through molt with white backs. I'm contemplating "only" breeding from them next season, though I'm doing better with type on this year's pullets.

Both my original male and the son of his I mated this year don't seem to have any buff/brown/red feathers. The son reads more "gray" than his father, and that is where I'd start looking carefully at fluff. The son's type is an improvement, though, and we've already got matings planned for him. Assuming things don't change.

I hate to admit this, but bathing the birds seems to be a good way to evaluate their fluff color.

The Columbian pattern will only add complications that you do not need. You will have a hard enough time getting the female's color right.

Now is this bleed through only on careful inspection? Is this an occasional feather, or is this more systemic?

It is not terminal, because there are solutions. I would, until this was going in the right direction, breed only hens. I would hatch enough to get birds with good type etc., and keep enough birds so that I had some hens to breed with. I would breed those last year hens with the white backs. I would get as many eggs from them as I could.

If I bred any pullets, I would record who was from who, and keep birds that came from birds that molted clean.

PM Cpartist and ask her what her thoughts are. I am certain that she would have something to add.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Hi,
Well if you are going to do that, make sure it is an eWh based breed or you will be crossing alleles and that brings in a whole 'nother can of worms. What a pain to weed out the heterozygotes.
Best,
Karen

I'd have to be pretty desperate to try it. And I think I'd maybe start with Light Sussex. But I have a strong prejudice against doing that to my birds/team. I feel I'm at least a few years away from being that desperate.

I don't "need" to show, I don't "need" to win, so I'm not feeling I "need" fast, temporary fixes. The rest of the team is on the same page.

I think it's kind of funny how quick some people are to start telling me what to cross into my birds to improve them ... literally as soon as they know what breed I keep, they start telling me what to do with them. Not one question about how it's going, how they look, how long I've been working, where I got started, what my goals are ... I have used the eWh excuse to not follow the advice a time or two. Maybe that's all just common small talk with breeders?

Ditto most conversations about working with Delawares in general. People are super eager to "start over" with the breed, or start crossing stuff ... either crossing different lines, or crossing different breeds into them. I think Delawares are tempting that way for a couple different reasons: there is a tempting recipe of how to "make" a Delaware; there is no famous historical line people can get started with; people tend to compare them directly to modern Cornish Cross as if it's apples to apples and are very disappointed with the Delawares.

I think that last part is probably common for all "heritage" breeders. Comparing them unfavorably to modern hybrids in terms of production.

This year I culled my cockerels for weak joints and a couple crooked keels. Once all the culled cockerels are gone and I can see again, I'll sort the pullets for brown/red/buff feathers as well as weak joints and crooked keels. Then everyone can keep growing until spring for a second round of sorting.

The one mating we have planned so far is for the cock and hen with the nicest chests -- just need to get some eggs from the hen to make that happen, she's molting.

I'm still investigating about how to best address the color issues from within my own flock. I'll have three generations of males and two of females to choose from. We've expanded our team by two this year, a youth breeder and a judge/breeder consultant who has been coming to our coops to give us lessons and advice. I think it's a great team.

 

[bnjrob]

I'd have to be pretty desperate to try it. And I think I'd maybe start with Light Sussex. But I have a strong prejudice against doing that to my birds/team. I feel I'm at least a few years away from being that desperate.

I don't "need" to show, I don't "need" to win, so I'm not feeling I "need" fast, temporary fixes. The rest of the team is on the same page.

I think it's kind of funny how quick some people are to start telling me what to cross into my birds to improve them ... literally as soon as they know what breed I keep, they start telling me what to do with them. Not one question about how it's going, how they look, how long I've been working, where I got started, what my goals are ... I have used the eWh excuse to not follow the advice a time or two. Maybe that's all just common small talk with breeders?

Ditto most conversations about working with Delawares in general. People are super eager to "start over" with the breed, or start crossing stuff ... either crossing different lines, or crossing different breeds into them. I think Delawares are tempting that way for a couple different reasons: there is a tempting recipe of how to "make" a Delaware; there is no famous historical line people can get started with; people tend to compare them directly to modern Cornish Cross as if it's apples to apples and are very disappointed with the Delawares.

I think that last part is probably common for all "heritage" breeders. Comparing them unfavorably to modern hybrids in terms of production.

That whole attitude is just pervasive everywhere and is a result of the instant gratification society that we live in. They want what they want and they want it yesterday and if you can't give them their way, they are going to throw a tantrum. And it isn't with just breeding for appearance traits, it's also with folks breeding for production that think that they need to criss cross all different birds to make the best egg or meat producing bird because they are just sure that they can reinvent a better chicken. Makes me nuts. People get caught up on ONE thing that they read, and they ignore everything else and never understand what it takes to actually breed a chicken for any kind of trait. And they don't want to wait years to see results. I have talked plenty of people out of buying Javas because they often are looking for *show quality*, egg laying and meat producing machines. They read a romanticized article in a chicken magazine and have fantasies about making a fortune selling *rare*, *heritage* Javas and then I tell them the reality and they get mad at me for bursting their bubble.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

The Columbian pattern will only add complications that you do not need. You will have a hard enough time getting the female's color right.

Now is this bleed through only on careful inspection? Is this an occasional feather, or is this more systemic?

It is not terminal, because there are solutions. I would, until this was going in the right direction, breed only hens. I would hatch enough to get birds with good type etc., and keep enough birds so that I had some hens to breed with. I would breed those last year hens with the white backs. I would get as many eggs from them as I could.

If I bred any pullets, I would record who was from who, and keep birds that came from birds that molted clean.

PM Cpartist and ask her what her thoughts are. I am certain that she would have something to add.

Here is the worst from last year ... she makes a great example. I think she had a couple red feathers that popped out just before she reached POL last year. This summer, she molted and now looks like this ... (bad photo, they're free-range so I have to sneak up on them, and getting the lighting right is tough with an iPhone) ... her new red feathers look silver laced red? Ish? There are a lot of things I like about her, but clearly that color isn't breedable.



This one below is somewhat more typical of how the extra color shows up after the first adult molt, but I wouldn't breed her because of all the fluffy soft feathers anyway. That red/buff color is the same as our clay soil, so it is tempting to pretend she's just dirty. She's not just dirty. You can see the color shows up on the "top" of the bird, and it doesn't seem to go very deep. I *think* the fluff is okay. I've bathed a couple females, and the cape area can have extra black (gray) underneath that doesn't show up as obviously when the bird is dry.




When my starter females (from my starter trio) finished their first molt adult molt, they had about that much "bad" color, just a dusting on top, but it was barred white/buff.

If you look carefully at this year's pullets, you can find some with "salmon" color near the black. This presents more on pullets with the "strongest" coloring, meaning ones that have striped necks (instead of barred necks), or the ones with the "best" tails (meaning proper laced black tails instead of barred tails). Black tails tend to come with black necks in my flock. There also seems to be some correlation with leg color ... the birds with the most orange/yellow legs seem more likely to have the black tails & necks & salmon/buff/brown/red color show up eventually.

All of this seems FAR less pronounced in the males. We spotted very few cockerels with any hints of salmon so far this year. Color issues with the males are the typical "too much black" thing, though possibly there is gray encroaching into some of their fluff, too. POSSIBLY. That's just not something I've really looked into very much.

I really like the idea of working with last year's "white" hens. That's what my gut tells me to do. If I have a good cockerel this year, I might put them with him. They've already been with their father, and color was all over the place, though with a better selection process we might have better luck. Fingers crossed I also have one or two "white hens" with good type ... last year I was just too new to "going over" birds, and have crummy eyes for seeing up close, and wasn't able to table-top them, so kind of threw up my hands after culling for obvious things, and left 8 pullets in the breeding pen. Some were kind of sad compared to others. But it sure made gathering clutches nicer than when only working with a trio.

It is probably a good time of year, if there is such a thing, to ask @cpartist what she thinks. I really respect the careful work she's doing with the breed, and refer people to her if they're looking for chicks.

 

[bnjrob]

Here is the worst from last year ... she makes a great example. I think she had a couple red feathers that popped out just before she reached POL last year. This summer, she molted and now looks like this ... (bad photo, they're free-range so I have to sneak up on them, and getting the lighting right is tough with an iPhone) ... her new red feathers look silver laced red? Ish? There are a lot of things I like about her, but clearly that color isn't breedable.


This one below is somewhat more typical of how the extra color shows up after the first adult molt, but I wouldn't breed her because of all the fluffy soft feathers anyway. That red/buff color is the same as our clay soil, so it is tempting to pretend she's just dirty. She's not just dirty. You can see the color shows up on the "top" of the bird, and it doesn't seem to go very deep. I *think* the fluff is okay. I've bathed a couple females, and the cape area can have extra black (gray) underneath that doesn't show up as obviously when the bird is dry.


When my starter females (from my starter trio) finished their first molt adult molt, they had about that much "bad" color, just a dusting on top, but it was barred white/buff.

If you look carefully at this year's pullets, you can find some with "salmon" color near the black. This presents more on pullets with the "strongest" coloring, meaning ones that have striped necks (instead of barred necks), or the ones with the "best" tails (meaning proper laced black tails instead of barred tails). Black tails tend to come with black necks in my flock. There also seems to be some correlation with leg color ... the birds with the most orange/yellow legs seem more likely to have the black tails & necks & salmon/buff/brown/red color show up eventually.

All of this seems FAR less pronounced in the males. We spotted very few cockerels with any hints of salmon so far this year. Color issues with the males are the typical "too much black" thing, though possibly there is gray encroaching into some of their fluff, too. POSSIBLY. That's just not something I've really looked into very much.

I really like the idea of working with last year's "white" hens. That's what my gut tells me to do. If I have a good cockerel this year, I might put them with him. They've already been with their father, and color was all over the place, though with a better selection process we might have better luck. Fingers crossed I also have one or two "white hens" with good type ... last year I was just too new to "going over" birds, and have crummy eyes for seeing up close, and wasn't able to table-top them, so kind of threw up my hands after culling for obvious things, and left 8 pullets in the breeding pen. Some were kind of sad compared to others. But it sure made gathering clutches nicer than when only working with a trio.

It is probably a good time of year, if there is such a thing, to ask @cpartist what she thinks. I really respect the careful work she's doing with the breed, and refer people to her if they're looking for chicks.

Wow, that one sure does look like it should be some red-laced breed. It's interesting that you are seeing more of the problem in your females. With Javas, we see incorrect red & gold feather color coming up more in the males and we have actually not been able to get any of the females to have the wrong feather color in our color project birds - bred to purposely get that wrong color. Interesting that you are more often getting the orange/yellow feet when red feathers are showing up - that's opposite of our Javas. When we get the incorrect red feathers showing up, it tends to go together with pink feet instead of the proper yellow feet.

There's no reason why you can't use the older, more white birds. Pick a good typed cock or two that can complement them and see how that does for you. I'm not a big proponent of being super strict when it comes to linebreeding and what the familial relationship is with them. It's a balancing game when you're breeding and even when you have two seemingly perfect birds to mate together, you still wind up with offspring that make you scratch your head and wonder where in the world a particular flaw came from. You won't always know how the genes are going to mix until you try it and grow them out and watch them. And sometimes it takes watching them for a couple of years to see what their final body shape and coloring is going to be for you to be certain that those are the genes you want to continue to use.

 

[fowlman01]

IMO........crossing to another breed would be your absolute last resort. When I hear that common saying....."It will give you hybrid vigor" , it makes me want to say bad things to them. There is so much incorrect info online regarding chickens. Most often you don't need hybrid vigor, you just need to know what you are doing.

Walt

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

IMO........crossing to another breed would be your absolute last resort. When I hear that common saying....."It will give you hybrid vigor" , it makes me want to say bad things to them There is so much incorrect info online regarding chickens. Most often you don't need hybrid vigor, you just need to know what you are doing.

Walt

Me too!!!

 

[cpartist]

Leslie, I do not have direct experience with what you are showing. My issue has been, and continues to be brassiness/yellowing. I think they are different because the coloring you are showing is looking a reddish brown in the pics. Also you say this appears after the molt. What I see occurs after the feathers come in and age. After molt they are back to snowy white, for awhile anyway. So I will not go into my thoughts and experiences with the brassiness, which I believe has both genetic and environmental aspects. I will throw out some thoughts on what you are seeing. Hopefully someone with a better grasp and knowledge of genetics will comment and correct as my knowledge is very limited.

As you know, these Delaware were created using a BR cock over NH hen. The E alleles of the two breeds are different. BR are based on EE (Extended Black) and Silver and NHs are eWh (Wheaten) based and Gold. So the F1s of this cross are split EE/eWh. In the next generation you will get more splits, and some pure for each base. I believe the Delaware should be eWh. In that genetic chart you show eb, but I think that is wrong. I believe it is possible for some of these Del projects to be EE or split E/eWh. Why does that matter? According to the genetics people at Classroom at the coop-“I believe that both ER and E fully suppress Co.”

Co (the Columbian gene) should be present in the Delaware and both BR and NH carry Co. What it should do on the Delaware is restrict color on the body and push it to the hackle and tail. Delaware should also be recessive white. That is another gene that should be blocking body color. It is not clear to me how the Recessive White appears in the projects by the third generation from a BR/NH cross or how it reacts on an Extended Black base.

You might also be seeing the Mahogany gene which the NHs carry but the Delaware should not. Bottom line is that some of the genes in the both the BR and the NH are keepers and some are not. There are probably unidentified genes and modifiers as well. Most non sex linked genes come in pairs and some are dominant and some are recessive. It can be difficult to get rid of the recessive genes as you cannot see them until they double up.

Regardless of the genetics, the way to get past this is doing exactly what you are doing. Cull the offenders. You want to get to the point where you have the correct genes in homogenous pairs. And really, the only way to do this is to hatch and cull visually and the more you hatch the better chance to get to the correct genotype and phenotype. It is a shame that it does not appear until after molt. It gives you an appreciation for those DQs and defects you can see at hatch, or shortly after. I will tell you that I had something similar happen with a couple of Wheaten Ameraucana hens after molt. They feathered in with dark brown scallops, almost lacing, on the back. After culling I have not seen it since. You are lucky to have Rosanna as a partner and a resource. If she is not seeing this in her stock that would be the only outsourcing I would do at this point. The only reason to outcross is to get something you need and do not have and cannot achieve with what you have. That is not what you are dealing with, IMO. You need to eliminate errant unwanted genes, not bring in new ones.