Home Feeding Ideas and Solutions Discussion Thread

[Kikiriki]

Well, I applied the vinegar treated chicken poo to several garden areas, as well as the to the purslane. No plants died...yippee! The corn seemed especially happy to get a feeding. I did water it in quite well. I think it may have had a little too much vinegar: I tested to see how an earthworm would react (from my worm bin) and it flipped itself off the handful of chicken poo and hauled butt to the other side of the container.


I will try this worm test again when I have enough chicken poo, using less vinegar, but I do not hold much hope of chicken poo ever being a worm food...


I will wait to feed the purslane to the chickens until it gets some new growth: I don't know if the added ammonium can retroactively reduce oxylic acid, or if it has to be present from the start for a reduction.

Vinegar treated chicken poo?  That's interesting.  What and why and wherefore?  Just curious and would like to know.

It is below the bit you quoted, in the excessively long quoted portion (lol!):

Chicken poo has nitrates. Nitrates convert to other things depending on what is available to mix with, or what bacterias are around. When mixed with water it forms ammonia, when acid is also present it forms ammonium. A study I read found ammonium reduced oxylic acid in plants. Oxylic acid is refeered to as an anti nutrient because it binds with nutrients preventing us from properly absorbing them. These new chemicals can a problem for people and chickens, as sonme can cause digestive problems, some can contribute to achy joints or kidney stones. Oxylic acid is toxic in very high amounts and yet it is in many very nutritious foods, like spinach, alfalfa, etc... Conversely, other information suggests oxylic acid may help in binding toxins that can contribute to cancer or other health problems, preventing them from being absorbed into the body. Also, it is suggested these salts (the bound chemicals) can stimulate the digestive track making it work better.

I am both trying to find a way to make the chicken poo more useful, and to make the purslane I want for food for family and chickens to have lower oxylic acid than it naturally contains.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Not sure how I missed that. Thank you for your explanation. I went back and read your post that I quoted.

That sounds like an interesting experiment. I wonder if something like that is happening with my comfrey. I have it planted out back. Our soil is a very dry and dusty clay (I think). High alkaline. We put organic ACV in our chicken's waterers. We have several pens. At the end of each day, we collect all the water that wasn't consumed and pour it on my four comfrey plants. They are growing very very well. Oh, I mixed chicken manure/shavings and horse manure/straw into the planting holes at planting time.

I'll be interested in the results of your experiment. Will you be able to know if the oxylic acid is reduced?

So alfalfa has oxylic acid in it? If I was to rehydrate my alfalfa cubes and then add them to my ferment bucket which I believe is fairly high acid because I started it with Organic ACV and occasionally add a splash to keep it on the healthy side when it starts to smell a little weird, would that help with the oxylic acid?

 

[RoseMarie1]

What is a prolific weed that you and your chickens can share? Purslane! I spent my day doing research on breaks from the garden. Here is what I found:

Purslane is very nutritious and adds omega 3 fatty acids to eggs: you and the chickens can eat leaves, stems, and flowers.

Chickens fed purslane did lose weight, but had improved egg production, and ate less food.

Purslane has high oxylates: the anti-nutrient that also has some anti cancer properties. It is 1/100th of the composition, which is pretty high: if you are prone to kidney stones, it is recommended that you avoid foods high in oxylates which includes many leafy greens: cabbage, broccoli, spinach, moringa, and more.

Chicken egg shells did lose calcium with oxylic acid added to hens diet. If you start feeding purslane, you may want to increase their calcium supplement.

Conversley, others report that the raw vegetable form oxylic acid typically binds just with the calcium in the plant once it is eaten, and that it does so more in the gut than in the bloodstream where it will cause kidney stones, or other problems like joint inflammation. They said it was more likely to be problematic after the chemical composition was altered by cooking.

Purslane is also found (along with mulberry leaf and an asian variety of wormwood 'artemisia capillaris' which had the best effect) to suppress the growth of virus including newcastle and avian flu in embryos of hens fed dried matter.

Purslane affects lactic acid in the body and a study with rats fed purslane in a liquid form found that the more purslane they ate, they less they suffered exercise induced fatigue and the longer they could perform.

Oxylates in purslane and spinach were reduced by increasing ammonium to ammonia ratio in hydroponic systems.

Very basic: Nitrate is NO3, NH2 is nitrite, NH3 is ammonia, NH4 is ammonium. Please look this up if you are into the chemistry as I left out a lot!

You can create ammonium from chicken poop by mixing in a solution of water and vinegar (or other acids). The nitrates mixed with water form ammonia. The vinegar being an acid lends a hydrogen atom and forms ammonium. You can do an experiment: mix some poo with just water and you will smell ammonia. Mix some with water and add a little splash of vingear at a time, stirring: in this you will soon not smell the vinegar, and you will possibly only faintly detect any ammonia. If you smell any ammonia, add a dash more vinegar. If you smell vinegar, add a bit more chicken poop.

Composting chicken poop results in very poor usuable nitrogen because it is lost as ammonia gas, or is in a pile that is not acidic enough to create ammonium. Fresh poop creates more ammonium than dry poop because the N is lost rapidly.

An experiment with wood vinegar and chicken manure found the 1part vinegar to 300 parts water mixed with chicken manure and tilled into soil significantly increased the yeild of rice without increasing foliage. Nitrogen typically increases foliage while decreasing yield.

I gathered lots of Purslane from around the yard, so I will do an experiment. I will have four areas: sandy unenriched soil, enriched soil (a bagged organic from compost), and both of these with identical feeding from my vinegar chicken poo and water mixture. They all get full sun. I will not be able to test for oxylates, but I will report on growth, flowering, and flavor. I will also test whether the chickens show a preference for any of the test plants.

I am going to wait a day for the plants to settle in from transplanting: i have sandy soil and they pulled out very easily with minimal root breakage. They will reroot from broken stems. They seed prolificly and seeds can remain viable for 40 years!

OK now is this the purslane that blooms that is a flower? I planted some of that moons ago and still have it coming up in my yard here and there. Wondering IF I could plant it in the chicks run if this is the same stuff?

 

[ocap]

Thanks! I've read to place it around 12" - 16" off the ground, that sound about right? (the PVC one that is)

My first year with nipples on a PVC system. I have it hooked on the fence and raise it as the chicks grow, three different breeds and therefore three different growth rates. Initially I had it supported on both ends with bricks and put additional bricks under it as the largest chicks grew. had other bricks near so the shorter Wyandottes could stand on the bricks and reach the nipple. Now the pipe is higher on one end so the wyandottes can reach the low end and the australorps can go to either end. I think that it is better to have it a little low, the chicks can squat if necessary.

 

[RiddleMe]

I start my brooder chicks on the nipple waterers from day one. I leave a regular waterer in for the first few days just to be sure but all it takes is one to get the idea, after a week I can usually pull it out. Same thing with broody raised, although there I wait until the broody has them out with the flock and I see them using the nipples. But I have a couple different setups so I can mix and match as needed, 2 liter bottles with a nipple in the lid, a couple different buckets with nipples on the bottom, etc. So I just adjust height as required for growth, either by raising/lowering a waterer, adding "steps", etc. Right now i have 3 different ages/sizes in my layer flock, everyone is covered by a low 2 liter bottle for the littlest ones and a wood block under the main bucket.

 

[Kikiriki]

Not sure how I missed that.  Thank you for your explanation.  I went back and read your post that I quoted.

That sounds like an interesting experiment.  I wonder if something like that is happening with my comfrey.  I have it planted out back.  Our soil is a very dry and dusty clay (I think).  High alkaline.  We put organic ACV in our chicken's waterers.  We have several pens.  At the end of each day, we collect all the water that wasn't consumed and pour it on my four comfrey plants.  They are growing very very well.  Oh, I mixed chicken manure/shavings and horse manure/straw into the planting holes at planting time. 

I'll be interested in the results of your experiment.  Will you be able to know if the oxylic acid is reduced?

So alfalfa has oxylic acid in it?  If I was to rehydrate my alfalfa cubes and then add them to my ferment bucket which I believe is fairly high acid because I started it with Organic ACV  and occasionally add a splash to keep it on the healthy side when it starts to smell a little weird, would that help with the oxylic acid?

You missed it because I yammer on! I like to be thorough...

I have done no research on comfrey, but I have seen mentions of averse reactions in people who use a lot of it, I think. If you have alkaline soil, adding acid will help plants that like neutral to acid...most plant info will give a range for best growth, so you can look growing conditions best suited for what you grow.

The study I read was about growing plants, not harvested plant matter. Oxylates in harversted matter can often be reduced by fermenting, soaking in water, or cooking, but it does not work on all of them: oats for example, had little change when soaked or fermented or cooked.

One person in an article said cooking changes the form of the oxylic acid into something else that also has negative properties. They cited a specific and supposedly well credentialed person, but not any studies.

I find it interesting that the plants highest in nutrients are often the ones highest in oxylic acid: it does suggest to me that the oxylic acid has an important role. Many of the plants we have cultivated for generations contain it. I would not feed an animal or person a diet of only these plants, but the studies of some that contain them typically find they do no harm when the plant is arount a 1/4 of the total diet, and do provide for growth and/or production of eggs or offspring or increased lactation.

 

[Kikiriki]

OK now is this the purslane that blooms that is a flower? I planted some of that moons ago and still have it coming up in my yard here and there. Wondering IF I could plant it in the chicks run if this is the same stuff? 

It is portulacae and there many varieties. Some have smaller leaves or larger, but they do flower. Some are ground huggers, and others upright. The leaves resemble a paddle and they are thick succulents. I have a lot trouble posting photos: it does work for me more often than it does, so I will try in another post...

If you do plant near the chickens, ensure it is not the only fodder growing so they get a good variety to select from. I go around my yard and hand pick weeds, grasses, the purslane, and mulberry leaves, then cut it all into bite size bits with scissors to avoid impacted crops. I keep the purslane under a quarter of the plant material. I also have a bed of chicken fodder growing in the run. They have put a hurting on it! Need to replant.

 

[Kikiriki]

Okay, no photo, but here is a link to a blog with some good photos and discussion:

http://anaustinhomestead.blogspot.com/2010/08/wholesome-wednesdays-purslane.html

 

[Lacy Blues]

It is portulacae and there many varieties. Some have smaller leaves or larger, but they do flower. Some are ground huggers, and others upright. The leaves resemble a paddle and they are thick succulents. I have a lot trouble posting photos: it does work for me more often than it does, so I will try in another post...

If you do plant near the chickens, ensure it is not the only fodder growing so they get a good variety to select from. I go around my yard and hand pick weeds, grasses, the purslane, and mulberry leaves, then cut it all into bite size bits with scissors to avoid impacted crops. I keep the purslane under a quarter of the plant material. I also have a bed of chicken fodder growing in the run. They have put a hurting on it! Need to replant.

Perhaps you could build a grazing frame so they can't tear up the roots?

 

[RoseMarie1]

It is portulacae and there many varieties. Some have smaller leaves or larger, but they do flower. Some are ground huggers, and others upright. The leaves resemble a paddle and they are thick succulents. I have a lot trouble posting photos: it does work for me more often than it does, so I will try in another post...

If you do plant near the chickens, ensure it is not the only fodder growing so they get a good variety to select from. I go around my yard and hand pick weeds, grasses, the purslane, and mulberry leaves, then cut it all into bite size bits with scissors to avoid impacted crops. I keep the purslane under a quarter of the plant material. I also have a bed of chicken fodder growing in the run. They have put a hurting on it! Need to replant.

OK thank you and thank you for the link as well. I have planted a window box to put on the front of my chicken pen to dress it up a bit since it's so ugly and that's the first thing you see when you come up our drive. lol