Horse color - help

[abigalerose]

All of you who happen to know more about horse color genetics than I do, I need your help. I got this mare today and I don't know what color she is. To me she just looks brown. Which some people will argue is an actual color and others will say it's not. She could be sooty buckskin or dark slate grullo. Maybe even smokey black. I don't know. The people I bought her from say she's grullo, but I'm not totally sold on that becuase she doesn't have a dorsal stripe. They said that she had a "pure grullo foal" one time.. And they said the lady who bought the foal had this mare DNA tested to make sure it was actually her mom becuase she couldn't believe she'd have a grullo foal. And they told me that means she's grullo? Idk. Didn't make a lot of sense to me and it didn't seem like they really knew what they were talking about when it came to colors. Not that it matters becuase I didn't buy her based on her color. But I would like to know what to call her. And get it changed on her papers if I need to. Her papers just say brown. Anyways here she is, she's sweaty in some of the pictures.

 

[abigalerose]

Update: her sire was black, dam was buckskin. I would say she's brown but her parent colors make me think sooty buckskin

 

[redguinea]

I would call that burnt buckskin. Thats what that colout is called in Australia.

 

[abigalerose]

Thanks! I was researching all day and it's definitely sooty buckskin (probably same as burnt buckskin) or smokey black, I'll probably get her color tested eventually just to be sure

 

[Eggsoteric]

Thanks! I was researching all day and it's definitely sooty buckskin (probably same as burnt buckskin) or smokey black, I'll probably get her color tested eventually just to be sure

If her sire was black and her dam a buckskin then chances are she's considered a bay or buckskin, with a small possibly she's a smokey black, however, a lot goes into horse coat color genetics such as whether or not the sire and dam carried the red gene.

Horse coat calculator: http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine/CCalculator1.asp

I don't see any of the primitive markings that would indicate she's grulla (shoulder barring; cob webbing; leg barring; dorsal stripe).

Did you have her vet checked?

 

[abigalerose]

Yeah I didn't believe that she's grullo, the people I bought her from were totally convinced she was though. And I would be willing to bet money that the "pure grulla" foal she had was actually smokey black, becuase they said they knew the foal was grullo becuase it was steel grey, but lots of smokey blacks have steely grey foal coats.
I'm pretty sure she's a buckskin.

 

[Bunnylady]

I don't see any of the primitive markings that would indicate she's grulla (shoulder barring; cob webbing; leg barring; dorsal stripe).

This was my thought. Also, because Grulla is dun on black, it usually has a sort of grayish cast (the name apparently comes from the Spanish name of a gray-colored bird, a crane). If this girl's dam was a buckskin, I'm thinking a cream gene buckskin rather than a dun-type ("dunskin"). Apparently, cream + dun may have a golden tone, but you'd still have those primitive markings . . .

As to the "grulla" foal - steel gray is the normal coat color for a genetically black foal. Foal coats are often a very different shade from what the color eventually turns out to be - some can look really strange as they molt out their baby hair. A foal that is born absolutely black will almost certainly be a genetic gray, and will turn white as it ages (like the Lipizzans)


But again, as you said, she could be a smoky black - lots of "brown" horses are, and they can vary quite a bit from just-not-quite-black to some pretty light shades.

 

[abigalerose]

Yeah you don't have to convince me that her and her foal aren't grulla, I was just saying what her previous owner told me. And when they were telling me that I was like no way. The only way I could see her being a grulla would be if she was a dark slate one, but even then, no dorsal stripe or leg barring so that's a no. And now that I know what her parents are its a definite no. And with her being buckskin or smokey black I'd say her "steel grey" foal was definitely a smokey black.
I think she's buckskin, the only reason I say she could be smokey black is becuase I've never seen a buckskin this dark, also with what her parents were it is possible, and her papers have brown on them.
Like I said, I'm gonna get her color tested, but I think buckskin.
And I think the people I bought her from don't know a thing about colors! I was telling them about my other two horses and told them that I had a gold champagne fox trotter and they pointed to their palomino fox trotter and said "we have a god fox trotter too but we just call him palomino".
I don't know very much about colors, but I knew they didn't have a clue.
I did think for a second that maybe they were right about her being grulla, and she just showed it weird, becuase they told me when she had that foal the person who bought the foal had my mare DNA tested and they acted like that DNA test is what told them she was grulla, so I was confused for minute, but when I called AQHA they told me that the DNA test just proved she was the mom to the foal, it didn't have any color results on it, and that brought me right back to being confident they were wrong again.
Oh, while were on the subject of colors, my cousin wants me to breed this mare to her cutting stallion (it'll be a while before I decide btw, and please no lectures on breeding, I wouldn't be going into it uneducated)
But her stud is sorrel, but she said something about the cream genes he has because he came out of two palominos, so assuming that my mares a sooty buckin, what color foals what that give?
And assuming she's smokey black, what would that produce?
And if she's just brown?? (They don't have brown on coat color calculater btw)

(Also, Lipizzans are really cool)

 

[Eggsoteric]

And I think the people I bought her from don't know a thing about colors! I was telling them about my other two horses and told them that I had a gold champagne fox trotter and they pointed to their palomino fox trotter and said "we have a god fox trotter too but we just call him palomino".

It's not at all unusual to come across folks who have never seen nor heard of your unusual coat colors in horses, such as your champagnes, cremello's, perlinos, brindles, etc.

 

[Bunnylady]

If your cousin's stud is sorrel, he doesn't have any cream genes. One of the possibilities with two pali's is that neither of them gave the foal a cream gene, and that's what happened in his case (one copy of cream on red is a pali, two copies is a cremello). Sorrel, of course, is a red-based color.

But whether your mare is a buckskin or a smoky black, she'd have a cream gene. Both colors are black-based; a buckskin would have an agouti gene (as would a "brown," or some form of agouti, anyway).

Bay, black, buckskin and smoky black are the obvious possibilities here; if your mare carries the red factor, you might have red or palomino turn up. Of course, sooty could come into play, too.

Lots of people love color, but haven't a clue about the genetics of even the common colors. Champagne is so unusual, most people have never even heard of it - horse nut that I am, I spent at least 30 years being unaware of its existence.

But I think you are right in assuming that this horse's previous owner hasn't anything of value to add to your understanding of her color - one of those situations where their lack of understanding is so great, even the little that they think they know is wrong.