Now to reply to the ah...autopsy. Since others gave general rules by bale, not sure why I alone am getting picked on.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to pick but this is misleading and inaccurate. An "average" horse is 1000 lbs. You've only provided for 1.5 - 2.5% of body weight with your figures. 1.5-2% of body weight is the accepted absolute minimum and those that are well-maintained on it are only the very easy keepers.
You say that's the absolute minimum and no one should ever feed less.
I say, 'it depends'. Merck uses a slightly different rule, but the "2 percent by weight per day" is a common rule. Again, depends on what is fed. I don't feed anywhere near that. A poorer hay needs to be fed more of....but since poor hays are fibrous and lack leaf and are often straw like, they may weigh less per the same volume.
Many of my friends around here, their horses graze on sparse grass and get two flakes of hay a day. They're not getting close to 2% by wt. They're also way overweight and have been for a long time. They're idle, and pets. They're also common American breeds - old time Quarter Horse, small cobby Morgans, small Arabians, and pony crosses and grades. They are what one friend calls 'air ferns'. They get fat so easily.
The pony gets less than 2% by wt. At 535 lb, and at 2% hay and nothing else(vet forbids any grain to most of these pony breeds), we are battling weight gain with him. We gradually reduced the hay til we arrived at a vet-approved weight for our little founder machine (any excess weight on some pony breeds is being increasingly criticized as having a key role in founder, insulin resistance and lipidemia - my vet wants my pony slim and looking like a small horse - not round and roly poly).
If I did feed at that, I would be getting arrested for Obesity To Horses. On the other hand, people with pregnant mares, breeding working stallions, young colts...whole different deal.
2% by weight, is for my horses, is 25.6 lbs of hay for one and 26 lb for the other. We feed 6 flakes to both, about 20 lb, and are battling the bulge all the time. For every hour of grazing, we reduce by one flake hay too. A less quality hay...feed more? I don't know. I don't feel that filling their bellies up with low quality feed is really an answer either. Fibrous tough hay has issues too (colic, impaction).
What to feed THIS horse and how much? To be frank, I don't know, and no one else does either. Guessing. A lot of very helpful and good guesses, though. In the end, the 'eye of the master fatteneth the cattle', meaning, you give them some, and then see how they do.
To be frank again, we're all guessing what type of horse it is, what's its state of health, and what would help it. Grain and rich in alfalfa hay might founder an old pony or pony cross...or any horse not used to it. It might make a starving horse very sick to feed it that(extremely starved horses need very special feeding). So it's very hard to know what to say, really.
We don't even know if this mare is pregnant. If she's wandering around (and if she's from a place like some I know that don't feed in winter), they also keep ungelded colts all over and they're catching their mares all the time).
Average? In some areas, horses run smaller, some larger. Around here, sport horses run rather big and heavy, and family pet horses can weigh much less, draft horses much more. Can't really rely on averages. Mine are 1280 and 1350.
I was using about 800 lb, you say 1000...both are ok places to start when we have no weight and are just guessing anyway. Merck in most of their literature, uses 450 kg (about 1000 lbs) in their examples.
Harder keepers can easily require 4+% of their body weight in hay daily plus grain.
Yes, I know. I was also guessing whether this one was a hard keeper, easy keeper. My biggest fear was that erring on the side of lots of rich feed, I could be foundering an old pony or sick animal...I was trying to be conservative.
At the same time....ah....trying to make a naturally slim, angular horse like a Thoroughbred (SOME thoroughbreds, LOL) look like a fat round foundation quarter horse...some people do go overboard with this. I'm not sure I'd do that. Some horses never look round and curvy. And shouldn't. 4% by weight...mm...that's really a lot. An idle adult in maintenance mode? Hm....Sometimes ribs show because of the lack of fat in the diet rather than the AMOUNT fed...or due to parasite load. I'd be sure what I was looking at. I've seen ribs on horses with severe, untreated ulcers, or animals that were stressed....or had cancer....It's not always about giving them more feed.
The starving horse...again, if severely starved, the diet has to be very, very carefully adjusted to that state.
You also can't give a definitive figure as to what portion of a bale any poundage of hay is as every bale of hay will weigh out differently.
No one else went to that level of detail either. I also don't think most people weigh what they feed, weigh every bale, etc. Most guestimate - ideal? Probably not. One person said 3/4 a bale a horse a day.
What I do is, every time I get a load of hay, for a few days or a week, I weigh the flakes and get an idea of how that load is running. Our hay is fairly consistent - it's tested by the seller, so I know the percentage of protein, etc and can adjust accordingly.
Then I know by feel, when I pick up the hay to feed, its weight. Most people I know eyeball it, or feed free choice, or estimate.
In the midwest 50-75 lb small squares are common, but on the west coast small squares are much more likely to weigh 100 lbs or more. Even within a region some farmers will pack them tighter than others. Different grasses and legumes are also differing densities so that effects weight as well.
Yes, every bale is different. I get even within one load, some small, some large. If a bale is a little small, it has fewer flakes, I finish that bale off quicker. And yes the flakes differ in size, weight. That's why I weigh for a week.
As above, this entirely depends on what type of hay you're buying, how tightly it's packed, etc.
Yes every bale is different, every type of grass, every level of moisture, every seller, every baling machine, every time the baler is adjusted, etc.
Depends on the legumes, depends on the horse. Alfalfa very much can have it's place in horse hay. safergrass.org is a great place to read up on the myths and facts surrounding horses and hay, especially fresh grasses and legume hays like alfalfa.
Yes. Here, I was recalling a gal, starting out, who bought top 100% alfalfa milking cow hay, thinking 'it's so green and pretty and smells so nice'. And certainly, more nutrition is always better? All 3 of her pleasure mounts foundered. And this is not uncommon. I see advice again and again in magazines, books - to be cautious about this. Our hay man cautions people all the time on this. So I was erring on side of caution. Old horse, roaming around, possibly only used to very poor hay....the whole thing of not having much information, and the possibilities, was worrying me.
I've been at barns that fed a lot of alfalfa, and at ones that didn't. Most of us, except those at the track and the Arab folks, avoid giving too high a percentage of alfalfa. In my area, most folks feed horses a very high quality timothy or orchard grass that has 10% alfalfa/clover. It's safe and reliable. Some folks who have ponies avoid this, out of concern for over-feeding their ponies. There is around her, what we call 'pony hay' - safe for ponies, lower in sugar, protein, etc.
Is alfalfa-ness an issue here? Perhaps not. Most hays one would get now for a modest price, have little or none, and the horse is probably not getting a lot of alfalfa at any time...for safety's sake...probably best to not try to throw anything really rich at her.
Why? Well, because it is the digesting of the hay itself that warms the animal. Even a fairly poor quality hay will help warm up an animal. Of course it'd be cool if this horse was in the pink of health and done up great all year except for a month or two in winter...but somehow...I'm kind of thinking that's unlikely.
Again, depends on the horse. They'll seek shelter when they need or want it, as long as it's available they'll be fine. Shelter doesn't have to be a barn, a wooded area is fine. A wind break is really, in the coldest conditions, all that's necessary. They aren't affected by the elements in the same way we are. When we're chilly, they're in their prime temperature range. Common sense is a good thing, just make sure your common sense is geared for the horse, not the human.
This is opinion. I've seen otherwise, in fact I've seen them be incredibly stupid. Horses have no 'instinct' about random lightning strikes, but also don't avoid trees during these storms. I've seen horses pick good shelter areas and pick the WORST shelter areas and stand out in the middle of the worst possible place, too.
A wind break is all that's needed, even in the coldest conditions?
I don't agree with this as an 'always' or even as a rule of thumb. Opinions vary.
And, according to some state laws, others disagree too, that horses are always adequately sheltered outdoors, no matter how cold. Like it or not, in the coldest states, the law requires buildings with water tight roofs and the animals to be in them in 'inclement weather'. The laws are worded to provide some wiggle room, and do often discuss alternates and conditions. But my guess is someone recommended this, because they felt it was necessary. Who? Some 'bleeding heart beaurocrat'? Oh I think you could take it up with the state governments. Based on my experience, I don't mind that sort of law at all.
What do I think? I think 'it depends'. Much of the US isn't like where I've lived, in heavy snowbelt, extremely cold areas. Even here, owners vary in opinion, some 'keeping rough' and some very much not. Hardy horses seem to thrive 'rough', and others do not. I've seen horses shivering with cold and others standing content.
We DO have very rapid temperature changes. Some owners feel these merit special attention. Some do not. Extreme cold snaps might send even the 'roughest' keepers to grab blankets or put horses in when we get a 30 degree drop in 6 hr. Horses that get soaked in rain and then the temp drops to 10, wellll...again, even the 'roughest' keepers are softening up under that.
Lightning, thunderstorms, tornados? Many on the open plains will say they would rather put horses out in storms. When there isn't a tree in sight to attract lightning (it really can strike anywhere) and the barn could get knocked over, that might be a better decision, such as in tornado alley. Opinions vary - some point out the amount of flying debris in severe storms, others the chance of building collapse. Here, we don't have tornados (much). Some people leave horses out til lightning is sighted close by, some put them in if there is a weather warning. Opinions vary. Our worry is more building collapse with snow load, but given how we're SUPPOSED to build here, building collapse should not happen.
You're in the PNW? Where I was (Seattle, Bellingham) the mud was actually a serious problem. People really struggled with it. I saw where people built feeding stations just to get the horses up out of the mud and keep the hay from making even more of a bog. These were roofed, and had concrete footing.
With some horses, they didn't get mud fever and thrush, but quite a few did. On some sandy areas, it wasn't as much a problem. Others were struggling all the time with mud fever - and no, these weren't dummies. People with years of experience, pros, breeders, very knowledgeable. Some horses more prone, some areas worse than others.
The owners I hung around with felt very strongly, the horses needed to be in dry stalls, on clean standings, for part of every 24 hr period, to prevent thrush, rain rot, mud fever, in the rainy season (the 'rainy season' appeared from my view, to be 'all year', LOL). I have sloped, excavated, rock base sacrifice/loafing areas. But horses I worked with near me, some had such bad mud fever they were lame, others with huge gobs of granulation tissue on legs from chronic mud fever for years, yes, mud can be a problem (no, 'mud fever' doesn't always form during wet parts of year, either).
Wet, rain and mud in and of themselves aren't really a problem. Hundreds, thousands of horses survive the PNW every year without thrush, marsh ponies lived happily in wet, sloppy marshes again... just fine. Poor hoof form, poor diet, poor environmental management; these things lead to thrush, rain rot, etc.
So you feel. I don't. There is such a thing as 'Immersion Founder', as Katrina survivors found when they came back to their horses. This happens frequently in flooded areas.
Marshes I've been in (camargue) were salt, with high dry areas even the horses sought out - relatively healthy, relatively free of difficulties. Other marshes, such as some of the low areas around here with cold, sour clay n cattails - I can't agree with you always there. I've been to barns with wet pastures that turned into bogs of manure, urine and mud, and they WERE unhealthy, and they had problems. Especially at the stocking rates many people keep to.
Many folks, their pastures are eaten bare by August. They're very overgrazed. They go into the wet season with overstocked, overgrazed areas bare, that turn into 'mud manure bogs' and stay that way all winter. And yup, some of the horses have problems.
Now my neighbors, they vary. One, a mudpit, tiny little area for 3 horses. Horses have mud fever, which she happily ignores. They pull tendons, pull curbs in the mud. She's blissfully unaware as the horses limp around.
Next neighbor, just as muddy, just as much a mess, one acre per horse, not ONE case of mud fever, not one pulled tendon.
NEXT ..... HUGE pastures, green as Kentucky all winter, NOT overgrazed, NOT bare, NOT a mud bog, horses are not turned out in some weather conditions...and a whole bunch of healthy, gorgeous horses.
Our county extension office advises horse owners to have sacrifice areas, and to keep horses OFF pasture when conditions are wet. They push very hard to try to improve runoff quality, erosion and prevent overgrazing and 'pasture degradation'. They do NOT want horses out 'every single day' and they want rocked, excavated, carefully designed sacrifice areas. I agree. I don't like to see the mud manure bogs - not good for horses, not good for neighbors, not good for streams and land.
To the contrary old horses often grow very thick coats and shed less readily in the spring putting them at risk of overheating. In the winter the greatest stressors for elderly horses are that they are sometimes unable to consume enough calories to keep warm -- keeping their teeth floated, their parasite management up to date and food available at all times is a good start on this in some cases blanketing may be warranted -- their thick coat, if it gets wet is harder to dry out properly and can lead to chilling, and the cold can complicate other health issues -- such as arthritis -- that are common in the older population.
Again, 'often' they do not. How often? We can argue how often (except I won't). I have a horse with low thyroid that grows a long ineffective coat, and is miserable if it's cold and he's not blanketed. Such individual differences have to be accomodated.
As for not shedding in spring, that's why many around here clip old horses and ponies. But too, the approach some take here, is to blanket these old horses starting in Sept, so they don't coat up so bad, and the blankets can just be removed in spring. We can have 80 degree snaps here in early spring, so some feel blanketing oldsters is safer, as more adjustable.
Yes, I've heard all the 'anti-blanket' crowd beat up blanketers for years and years. I think re blanketing - 'it depends'. May be needed, maybe not. Around here, snow belt? Sudden drops to 10 degrees or 25 below for a week? More likely needed.
As for feeding grain - we've gone to a no grain program even though we have hard working horses (most literature says lightly worked adult horses need little or no grain, and by definition, most pet horses are 'idle'). We feed a very, very high quality hay that actually has little alfalfa. Many people won't do what we do. Why do we? Because our vet (yes I know some vets know nothing, this one knows a lot) and many other vets, and much of the literature, is encouraging people to get away from processed feeds and high alfalfa diets. Why? Because of reasearch in insulin resistance, founder, and other problems. We're also encouraged to AVOID 'multi-supplementing'. I go with this approach.
It doesn't work unless one can get a really good quality hay. When we can't, we make adjustments. Most of the time, we can. So we're in our program.
You don't like that? Horses must have grain? Supplements? Alfalfa? Yes, that's some people's opinions.
I think 'it depends'. With a very low quality hay, they may need something else, but I think a ration balancer is a better choice then. We've also got the 'gotta grain' camps around here - some are feeding up to 20 lb grain (not complete feeds, grain) a day. I just don't agree with them. And I'd be awfully hesistant to insist this gal should put out grain for this older horse - he may not be used to it, it may make him sick or founder, if he's really starving, not a good idea.
Look, I know the 'turn em out' vs 'put them in the barn' arguments go on like plains fires on these bb's, and I also know, both sides are sure they're right and the other's wrong. The 'out' crowd seems to think any time anyone says anything about putting a horse up, that he's one of those people who keeps the horse hooded, blanketed in 10 blankets, and in a stall, 24/7 and never puts him out. The 'in' crowd seems to assume the 'outies' are leaving their horses out to starve and die like this:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...e=13&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:110&tx=80&ty=45
While the outies are thinkin' this:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...8&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:72&biw=897&bih=363
Another hot spot is the 'free choice hay' vs the 'not free choice'. I've noticed, good horsemen exist that feed hay free choice, and also who do not. Both of their horses seem to be fit, happy, and content.
I also have seen from knowing folks in both camps, that good horse people exist that:
rough out a little more or less
feed a little different program (more fat, less fat, more grain, less grain, more hay, less hay)
use or don't use blankets
adjust for their region and finances and traditions
Kumbayah...kumbayah....
guess that doesn't help....
