Horse Talk

[PeepersMama]

Syd says, "the sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

 

[chicken19]

He would be the easiest to place of you herd, but say you got in a car accident and a friend or family member (maybe someone not as horse friendly as you) handled everything and your horses got sent to auction, or maybe you just decided to sell one day, who knows, if, and unfortunately that if is always there, they had to be sold, he'd sell the easiest of yours, but there's a lot of horses in the world, and most likely your whole herd would end up on a meat truck.
I know with my herd, my mare and filly would PROBABLY find homes if something happened to me, my mare having nice conformation, pretty, good papers, sweet personality and broke to ride and my filly having great confo. flashy color, good papers, a good start on handling, and an awesome personality. But it's not guaranteed with them even. As for my geldings, if something happened to me tomorrow and they had to be sold, I honestly think they'd end up going to slaughter at some point, because they're not broke and they're GRADE (ones a mutt too). They've got kinda nice colors but that's about it. Lots of registered horses end up going to slaughter but they have a slightly better chance than grade and mix breed horses. And geldings ALWAYS sell the easiest. No one seems to want mares or stallions.
And I know the mare would mean less to you, that's why I said that. But that's kind of cruel. And if the foal takes after the mare? Most foals end up with personalities like their moms, not the their dads. What if you buy a mare and she ends up being hateful? Are you going to keep buying mares until you get one that acts like your stud? And still, what if the foal is just as tall as your stud? The foal could potentially get taller than him, given that he was never gelded he probably never reached his full height.
And what if the foal is a stud colt? Will you "risk" gelding it or are you going to keep two studs together? Because that's not the best idea. And I thought you said he wasn't gaited but I must have read something wrong somewhere.
Also, you only want a foal if it's born when you're 30? Horses don't just live to 30 and fall over dead. What if this foal winds up living to be 40 years old? Thats 10 years over your 60 year rule.
And it's not that risky to geld a horse. Think about all the geldings out there. There's MILLIONS of gelding. I have two geldings. I had 5 geldings before them. I would not think of gelding as a "risky" surgery. Spaying a mare would be. Gelding would not.
I firmly believe that a stallion should only be a stallion, if he's earned it.
He needs to have darn near perfect conformation, good papers (not just decent papers), a PHENOMENAL personality, maybe a flashy color, and he needs to be proven, a show record, money earner, SOMETHING. And even then still just maybe, because if you took everything I just said, and gelded it, he'd be worth twice as much lol. If they've proven that they produce money/point earning foals, plus everything else, then he probably deserves to be a stallion.
The only thing your horse has out of that is the personality.
I'm going to say something honest, and dont get offended, because I harshly judge my own horses too, just ask them lol.
But if I was horse shopping, I wouldn't give any of your horses a second look.
That's an honest view from a person who doesn't have any emotional attachment to the horses.
I think you'd be doing the horses a disservice to breed them.
I don't mean to be harsh, but I've been in the same place as you and it took me a long time to see the whole picture. I wanted to breed June to a friesian, to make a big, beautiful, versatile trail horse. And I had all kinds of reasoning and arguments but thankfully I finally seen the bigger picture, now there's no way I'd do that because I know I most likely wouldn't get what I was hoping for, and I'd just be creating another mix breed sub par horse.
But I do judge my horses harshly, just as I would with anyone else's.
I love them don't get me wrong, but I think from an outside perspective my geldings are ugly, awkward, grade, mutts and they're not broke. They're not worth much. And June is my heart horse, but her pasterns are too long, her neck is too skinny, and she's too short for a lot of people. She's also stubborn.
If you want a baby baby, then find someone who's got a mare and stallion that's perfect for what you want, and buy the baby in utero, and ask that you be the only one who handles it and go out to whoevers farm it is and work with your foal several days a week. If you don't have time for that, you don't have time for a foal out of your horses either. If you do have lots of time, but still don't like that option, maybe you could adopt from last chance corral or somewhere similar. That would give you a baby baby and it would definitely imprint on you

If him being a stallion is not a problem, then it shouldn't be.
I do agree that people shouldn't breed two low class horses together, the stallion has nice conformation. He doesn't look fit or anything but he isn't horrible. I've seen horses with legs so crooked that they look broken and sway backs that are surreal. This stallion looks fine to be bred with a nice mare.
If he becomes a problem with neighbours then something should be done but unless that happens there's problem.

 

[Kusanar]

Quote:
If him being a stallion is not a problem, then it shouldn't be.
I do agree that people shouldn't breed two low class horses together, the stallion has nice conformation. He doesn't look fit or anything but he isn't horrible. I've seen horses with legs so crooked that they look broken and sway backs that are surreal. This stallion looks fine to be bred with a nice mare.
If he becomes a problem with neighbours then something should be done but unless that happens there's problem.

Thanks, yeah, he isn't fit, that picture was taken at the end of winter where he was hardly touched and he is in a pretty small area due to the fencing everywhere else on the property being really bad ( I mean it blows over in the wind sometimes bad) so he doesn't get worked much. If I only breed him once, and keep the foal, it's not like I'm generating tons of unwanted foals, and with his personalty and the fact that he's not studdish, if anything happened to me, he could be gelded THEN which would be no more risky than gelding him at 5-6 years old would be which is what it sounds like abigalerose is saying you should do.

 

[Kusanar]

I was just going to let this drop, but there are a few things that have been bugging me about this...

And what if the foal is a stud colt? Will you "risk" gelding it or are you going to keep two studs together? Because that's not the best idea.

Actually, I would not geld the colt. What makes you think that keeping 2 studs together is a bad idea? Stallions band together in the wild all of the time, and having a stud colt with him wouldn't be ANY different than him living with 5 geldings which is what he is doing now and has his entire life.

I firmly believe that a stallion should only be a stallion, if he's earned it.
He needs to have darn near perfect conformation, good papers (not just decent papers), a PHENOMENAL personality, maybe a flashy color, and he needs to be proven, a show record, money earner, SOMETHING. And even then still just maybe, because if you took everything I just said, and gelded it, he'd be worth twice as much lol. If they've proven that they produce money/point earning foals, plus everything else, then he probably deserves to be a stallion.

I never have understood this. The safest time to geld a colt is when he is a weanling to yearling age, not when he is fully mature and the blood vessels are fully developed. So, how on earth are you going to go by the show record of a weanling? Don't you have to let him mature and get trained plus go to a few shows first? Also, if you are going by the fact that they are "proven to produce money or point earning foals" then they are worthy of breeding... Well, how on earth is a weanling going to prove he can produce prize winning foals? For that matter, how will a 15 year old stallion prove that so that he is worthy of being allowed to breed? If the horse must prove that he will produce good foals in order to breed, then no horses will ever be bred again.

Papers are just that, paper. I have 2 registered horses with amazing papers, does that mean anything? No. Will that make them sell for a good price? Again, no.

And lastly, a "flashy color" is something to allow the horse to breed? Really? What do you think of as flashy? How about rare colors? Wouldn't a true white horse be "flashy" or rare as most white horses are actually grey?

 

[GingersHuman]

I was going to stay out of this, but decided to add a few sentences. At this time, I don't think anyone should be breeding anything... Period. There are too many horses being shipped to slaughter, sitting in rescues, or being left to starve. That being said, only the best stallions should remain so. In my area, recently there have been people forced to rehome horses, some of which are stallions. To try to sell an unregistered stallion (or a registered but unproven one) is sentencing the horse to slaughter. I won't buy an ungelded colt, most people won't. I don't want to deal with testosterone-ridden animals, roosters are too much sometimes, and I have good ones!!!

 

[Kusanar]

Quote:
Fair enough. But, unless you checked under my stallion, you would never know he was one, so, if he ever had to be sold, which he won't be, then he could be gelded then, it's not like you would have to wait for the studdish behavior to go away, he doesn't have it NOW. He's not "testosterone-ridden" or at least he doesn't act like it, no more so than a few geldings I have had.

 

[abigalerose]

I was just going to let this drop, but there are a few things that have been bugging me about this...

Actually, I would not geld the colt. What makes you think that keeping 2 studs together is a bad idea? Stallions band together in the wild all of the time, and having a stud colt with him wouldn't be ANY different than him living with 5 geldings which is what he is doing now and has his entire life.

I never have understood this. The safest time to geld a colt is when he is a weanling to yearling age, not when he is fully mature and the blood vessels are fully developed. So, how on earth are you going to go by the show record of a weanling? Don't you have to let him mature and get trained plus go to a few shows first? Also, if you are going by the fact that they are "proven to produce money or point earning foals" then they are worthy of breeding... Well, how on earth is a weanling going to prove he can produce prize winning foals? For that matter, how will a 15 year old stallion prove that so that he is worthy of being allowed to breed? If the horse must prove that he will produce good foals in order to breed, then no horses will ever be bred again.

Papers are just that, paper. I have 2 registered horses with amazing papers, does that mean anything? No. Will that make them sell for a good price? Again, no.

And lastly, a "flashy color" is something to allow the horse to breed? Really? What do you think of as flashy? How about rare colors? Wouldn't a true white horse be "flashy" or rare as most white horses are actually grey?

Well, keeping them together won't be a problem, unless there's mares around. If there's a mare, even separated by a fence, and she goes into heat, then they will most likely fight, even if he isn't studdy acting, he's still an animal with testosterone, and there's no telling how studdy acting the colt will be, so why risk them getting in a fight and having your colt kick your stud and seriously injure him? We already know the neighbors have mares and you'll obviously have a mare.
And the majority of colts should be gelded when they're young, to reduce risk, but IF you have an exceptional colt who you know is a good prospect, then wait, see if he proves himself, and if he can't, THEN geld him, it's not AS safe, but still safe, and easier than keeping around an unproven stud just because you don't wanna geld. As for producing proven foals, obviously they wont start that way. Ideally you'd have a great stud prospect, keep him intact, train him, show him, and if everything is GREAT up until that point, then breed, if his first foal crop is exceptional, keep breeding and studding him out, if the first foals are crap, then geld him ASAP.
And although papers aren't everything, they're not "just a piece of paper" either.
And no, flashy color isn't grounds for breeding. It is an awesome bonus if you have a horse who's the total package AND has a popular color, but just because you have a pretty colored horse does not in ANY way mean to go ahead and breed so you can maybe get another colorful horse.
And no "white" (grey) isn't rare or flashy, and most people dislike it.
I love it, and it did trend briefly in my area and everyone around here was selling greys higher, but it's not rare or flashy and most people dislike it.
A "flashy" color would be pinto, or a homozygous dun, colors like that, that are more sought after and can be guaranteed if you have a homozygous.
And you CANT know that he'll never be sold. Something could happen to you today and he could be sold off. And saying he could be gelded at the time is not realistic, I wouldn't go out and by a stallion and then get it gelded, I would want to buy a gelding.
Geldings are even worth more.
And I'm not against keeping stallions, I'd love to have a stallion but I'd want to buy the best of the BEST and have him professionally trained and shown etc. and then I wouldn't even mass breed him. (Not saying that you are, I'm just saying).
I also think it's just kind of silly not to geld a horse because it's "not safe"

 

[Kusanar]

Quote: Last point, and likely the last post I will make on this thread as I have pretty much only been bashed for every post i have made.

You really don't seem to read what I write. Stud is NOT grey, he is WHITE. Greys are white hair with black skin and typically start a dark color and fade to white over a few years, Stud is white hair over pink skin and was born that way. Technically he is "Sabino White" and genetically he is a bey and white pinto, which means he has both a rare color (sabino white) and a "flashy" color (pinto). I know that is kind of nitpicky, but, it just irks me when people don't even read what I write and use that to argue with me.

 

[abigalerose]

Sorry, I just misunderstood it, I didn't think you were referring to your horse when you brought up the grey and white thing, I just thought you were saying that people thought that a grey who had gone white was rare and I was like huh?? Lol.
But him being a cool color doesn't really change anything.
And no one is bashing you either, just trying to help you see things better. When I very first started this thread I sounded JUST like you, and everyone jumped on me with their opinions about it and I was mad at first, but I'm glad now that I listened because i completely disagree with my old self

 

[ShrekDawg]

I can understand you're trying to be helpful but I feel like it somewhat is bashing in a way though because they already stated numerous times they have no interest in gelding him and how he's not studdish at all so it doesn't need to keep being brought up and discouraged.

Maybe MOST people can't handle stallions but if anyone can, I think katsdar can and their stallion is the one to do it with, a perfectly mannered one.

But that said, I'm not sure I would breed him, but I see nothing wrong with keeping him a stud or breeding him if you want. But even if you choose not to breed him, there is no reason he HAS to be gelded if he's well behaved. It's like with dogs. There is no need to fix them if they're well behaved or you are willing to put in the training and effort to make them well behaved and keep them contained on your property to prevent accidental litters or foals in the case of horses.

And that's another thing, I think the only reason a lot of people geld horses or neuter dogs is because it's easier than training them and working with them. And yes for the average person that's a good idea cause they don't know what they're doing. But katsdar seems like they do know what they're doing and if they are willing to put in the effort to train and work with their horse then what does him being gelded or not matter? Just because most people wouldn't want to work with a stallion doesn't mean katsdar can't or ALL horses must be gelded...

And besidez, wasn't it katsdar that said he once walked the stud with no chain and with 2 mares in heat on the other side and he was perfectly fine?

And that he doesn't even react when the mares next door go into heat and ignores them?

Maybe not but I thought I read and remembered that...

In which case, the mares next door would likely NOT be an issue or a source of a fight.

But of course you don't know how studdish the colt will be.

But it kind of seems like you're basing your reasoning for gelding him on how MOST stallions act rather than on this specific stud and how katsdar has said he acts. Which is perfectly mannered.

I don't see a reason to put an animal through an unnecessary surgery just because some people want it done.

That said, like I said, I'm not sure I would recommend breeding him but that's different than gelding him.

That said, @katsdar please don't leave the thread

I like having you here and people are just trying to be helpful even if it comes across wrong.

All this said, I think when someone has made a decision we need to respect it not keep trying to pressure them and force them to change and attack the choice.

OR.

We could focus instead on why not to breed him rather than on gelding him. Gelding isn't the important bit here and is NOT necessary