Houdans

[laseterlass]

My babies came in from Cackle today! Poor things were hatched and shipped Monday but they sent them to my local PO branch instead of the annex like they usually do, and didn't call me so I couldn't find them until this morning! I lost almost all of the 15 bantams that shipped with them, but only one Houdan. I'm impressed. Maybe this is a hearty batch!

They all seem to be very much on the lighter side. I do see one or two with very prominent domed skulls. Is this good or bad? No crossed beaks, all that I've checked so far have correct toes. I am happy.

Is the domed like the vaulted in the silkie? Check out an article by Hat trick silkies.

 

[Tricoglossus]

Hi everyone, these are the two chicks I posted pictures of on page 91 of this thread. I suspect they may be cockerels and that I'm seeing saddle feathers. Here are a couple more pictures, what do you think?

 

[exop]

Hmm... maybe? It's still a little hard to say. The adult saddle hackle feathers will have a very sharp pointed tip and a green glossy quality. You might be able to hunt for growing feathers in the understory if you muss their saddle area a bit, part the feathers and look at what's growing out of the skin.

 

[exop]

Quote:

My babies came in from Cackle today! Poor things were hatched and shipped Monday but they sent them to my local PO branch instead of the annex like they usually do, and didn't call me so I couldn't find them until this morning! I lost almost all of the 15 bantams that shipped with them, but only one Houdan. I'm impressed. Maybe this is a hearty batch!

They all seem to be very much on the lighter side. I do see one or two with very prominent domed skulls. Is this good or bad? No crossed beaks, all that I've checked so far have correct toes. I am happy.

Yay Cackle!!

If your order is like mine, you will find that some of the very lightest colored chicks are also some of the largest with the best build, nicest toes, fastest growth rate, and least pinched tails.

In other words, please don't get rid of the light colored ones ;-)

As for the domed skulls... it's hard to say. I put it down to Cackle occasionally adding birds which they buy at shows, so some have a slightly different genetic background. The largest, broadest crest in my 2011 group grew on a bird who had almost no visible dome as a chick, almost just a plain looking skull. Some of the most noticable domes, the narrow little mohawk shaped ones, give a very sparse, "Ye Olde Houdan" style crest:


A good utility crest. Notice the complicated antler comb. I love this picture, am pretty sure it was drawn from life. I have seen this same exact expression on birds being grasped and examined. "Help someone is holding me and I can't get away" "How much longer is the human going to take with this portrait!?"

Best - exop

 

[Tricoglossus]

Thanks Exop, I had a look at the two of them again before and here is what's growing out of the dorsal tail base:







Hackle feathers emerging?

 

[exop]

Those might be some sickle feathers in the second photo... is there a hairy fringe to the feather, where the feather edge is transparent and the feather fibres aren't locked together? I couldn't tell if that was what I was seeing, or if it's just a trick of the light. Sometimes new feathers look a little disorganized, too.

Little pointy hackle feathers would be found on the back of the chicken, a few cm up from the tail. I will post some photos if I can get my phone to work.

And on another note: AWWW! Nice looking bird.

 

[Tricoglossus]

Well those emerging feathers are like the tips of paintbrushes at the moment. They aren't as shiny as I would have expected for sickle feathers. The breeder's older male sibling of my chicks had pronounced hackle feathers but no sickle feathers yet, and he was a good couple of months older than these two. Well they like to keep you guessing! I will keep posting pics as they get older.

 

[fowlman01]

DuckiesGarden,

I have a better solution for you!

I am in Williamsport, Indiana (that's not far from Lafayette) and I have 30 (yes, really) four week old Mottled Houdans. Promising, healthy birds and I cannot keep all of them. Should be sexable soon, within the next week or three. If you want one or two or three Houdans I am right here! PM me and we can talk. I do get around the state a bit and maybe we could meet up somewhere, or a passing friend / relative could act as courier. Older chicks like these no longer need a constant heat lamp so that makes things easier.

Were yours part of a McMurray order? I ask because of the problems with mortality. It seems like McMurray needs to put in a little work on the vitality of their Houdan line.

This new lot of chicks are from Cackle, who in my opinion have some of the best Houdans in the country right now, for size and type, thanks to some additions to their flock in 2006, that's after the University of Arkansas breedng program got their starter Houdans from Cackle.

Several other hatcheries have some questionable birds.

McMurray's may well be very pure, but show some signs of inbreeding including deformed beaks and sickliness. I tried some in 2007 and things have only gotten worse since then. Privett / Welp has posted photos of their Houdans, which was thoughtful of them:
...Hmmm.

Please, please don't anyone cross breed the Houdan to anything else. If we want to improve the breed we have got to avoid any further dilution of it. If large eggs are a concern of yours, the chicks from Cackle might be a solution for you as my order included some honking great chicks which must have hatched out of decent sized eggs.

PS. Two notes for the worriers: glancing over this thread just now, I have been very depressed with the amount of talk there has been about crossing the Houdan to the Dorking to "improve" it.

1. Most importantly - there is NO evidence to suggest that the Houdan arose out of a Dorking cross. This idea sprung up somewhere around 1890 - 1900 after people had gotten used to the idea of a finite number of chicken breeds, each with distinct traits. But there is nothing to back it up, and all the Houdan traits can be accounted for without looking outside France. (There are a lot of French regional breeds. For example the Gournay is another mottled breed, there was an article in Backyard Poultry magazine this spring).

2. As recently as 1915, when the Houdan was at its height of popularity in America and when Houdans with excellent type and size were readily available , the APA standard called for WHITE earlobes. (What? you say.) Believe it or not, the whitish Houdan earlobe is not a sign of impurity or poor breeding, it is the earlobe with which the breed came to America, the earlobe which it had at its zenith of type and popularity, and it is still the standard in the UK, Europe and Australia. Why or when the APA changed it, sometime after 1915, I have not been able to find out. I believe the issue should be revisited because it has confused a lot of people.

Best - exop

I don't recommend crossing them either, but the evidence that there may be Dorkings in them is in the body shape and the fifth toe. The fifth toe is highly unusual, so it could mean that Dorkings were used to create the breed. There were Dorkings in France. The APA Standard still calls for white earlobes. See page 156 of the APA 2010 Standard of Perfection), so there should be no confusion. The only Continental breed I can think of offhand that does not have white earlobes is the Crevecouer.

Walt

 

[exop]

Walt,

How embarrassing. Apparently I am the only confused person. That is good news about the earlobe and goes to show two things: I need to reread the standard of perfection, and I have been keeping my head around too many breeds. Looks like I have managed to extend my annoyance at the Crevecoeur red earlobe requirement to the Houdan... Thinking back on it, I probably got the idea from the 1875 US Standard of Excellence which I read through a few years ago. That standard did originally call for a red earlobe on the Houdan, apparently by mistake because as I noticed this spring, the requirement was rescinded in the next edition. I would love to have heard the discussion that took place at that APA conference. The Crevecoeur has a white earlobe as well, but I wonder if no-one defended it; it seems never to have been popular in the US. Certainly for the Crevecoeur the requirement stuck.

There were plenty of five toed birds floating around in Europe, before the Dorking as a breed was recognized as such, including the common five toed farmyard fowl of Kent and Sussex (referenced by Harrison Weir in 1903) and five toed fowl in France. Apparently it did not use to be uncommon for farm flocks in the 1800s and earlier to throw the occasional five toed chicken, I will try to find the citation on that. To call any single combed five toed bird a Dorking would be a little dissimulating, as that name should only be applied to the market fowl of Dorking proper which is where that breed was developed. ...Besides the five toes, there were also plenty of solid, blocky bodied birds in France. I guess I object the most strongly to our use of modern "breed" divisions to try and explain the traits of a landrace chicken which predates those breed divisions in history.

Best regards, exop

PS. I am redacting my stupid post on page 91 - partly so I don't look quite so retarded and partly so I don't confuse anyone else. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[fowlman01]

Walt,

How embarrassing. Apparently I am the only confused person. That is good news about the earlobe and goes to show two things: I need to reread the standard of perfection, and I have been keeping my head around too many breeds. Looks like I have managed to extend my annoyance at the Crevecoeur red earlobe requirement to the Houdan... Thinking back on it, I probably got the idea from the 1875 US Standard of Excellence which I read through a few years ago. That standard did originally call for a red earlobe on the Houdan, apparently by mistake because as I noticed this spring, the requirement was rescinded in the next edition. I would love to have heard the discussion that took place at that APA conference. The Crevecoeur has a white earlobe as well, but I wonder if no-one defended it; it seems never to have been popular in the US. Certainly for the Crevecoeur the requirement stuck.

There were plenty of five toed birds floating around in Europe, before the Dorking as a breed was recognized as such, including the common five toed farmyard fowl of Kent and Sussex (referenced by Harrison Weir in 1903) and five toed fowl in France. Apparently it did not use to be uncommon for farm flocks in the 1800s and earlier to throw the occasional five toed chicken, I will try to find the citation on that. To call any single combed five toed bird a Dorking would be a little dissimulating, as that name should only be applied to the market fowl of Dorking proper which is where that breed was developed. ...Besides the five toes, there were also plenty of solid, blocky bodied birds in France. I guess I object the most strongly to our use of modern "breed" divisions to try and explain the traits of a landrace chicken which predates those breed divisions in history.

Best regards, exop

PS. I am redacting my stupid post on page 91 - partly so I don't look quite so retarded and partly so I don't confuse anyone else. Thanks for letting me know.

Just one more item. The Dorking is one of the most ancient breeds. It was brought to England by Julius Caesar, but was known and described by Columella and other Roman writers before that time. (Page 94 APA Standard of Perfection 2010 edition). There is plenty of info to document that.

Walt.