How about a Delaware/Buff orp. crossing? Or different colors of orps?

[Krys109uk]

Brilliant, thanks Tim.
When you write partridge you refer to eb/eb? The use of the word partridge is a bit confusing to me. In UK eb/eb, Pg/Pg, s+/s+ Orps & Wyandottes are called partridge but with Welsumers the wild type is called partridge.

Few things I'd like to discuss; hope you don't mind...Comparing notes, especially on genes which don't seem to have been investigated can be very useful.

Interesting what you're saying about the delawares & the undocumented autosomal red inhibitor. Have you experienced the same or similar gene in any other breeds?

Thank you for the description of autosomal red. I haven't done much with RIR except nicking reddening genes from the very dark exhibition types. Embarrassingly, while I have "Genetics of the Fowl" I haven't read it all because quite a bit is out of date. That description of Autosomal Red makes more sense than any description I've heard. I've had it described as the gene which makes a gold duckwing gold.....but Clive Carefoot's description of gold duckwing is the one which works. I've had it described as the phaeomelanin which causes the salmon colour in females of wheaten & wild type & but that seems, to me, to be an effect of their allele at the e-locus.
In work with each of Orps & RIR both separately & together, I have experienced a few autosomal phaeomelanin producing genes, which seem to be acknowledged, but are probably not particularly important. But they can be useful. Apart from autosomal red in the RIR have you encountered other gold or reddening genes?

What do you know about the gene Li? It is mentioned in Poultry Breeding & Genetics under eumelanin restrictors but not it is not described. Apart from causing light down, from what parts does it restrict eumelanin? I ask because I'm wondering whether it might be the gene I observed in the German bred Red Orps.

The main line of buff orps I used, in UK, were ey & did not carry dominant white. We did have a few from another line which did carry dominant white.
Things seem to be done in such a different way over here. Top exhibition breeders in UK don't usually sell eggs so one sees what one is purchasing, but then Britain isn't very big. (Just great VVVBG) So, with top quality, stock, one tends to get what one expects. I purchased some speckled sussex eggs from a private breeder not long after I arrived in US, they appeared to be wild type at hatch; they were a mess. Is there a usual way of obtaining stock that is what it is supposed to be, at least genetically, without travelling thousands of miles to view the parent stock?

Sorry for all the questions. Hope you don't mind.
Hwyl Fawr

 

[tadkerson]

Krys,

The term partridge can be interpreted differently in different countries. The original researchers of the E locus referred to eb (brown) as ep (partridge). Then further publications changed the ep to eb or brown, so the eb stuck. In the US, if you talk about partridge it is gold penciling as in the birds you mentioned. I have also seen wild type referred to as partridge.

I believe you are correct in saying that things like stippling and especially the salmon breast on wild type birds is a product of the E locus. If the salmon breast color was not a product of the wild type allele, then salmon breast color would segregate along with other E locus alleles. A person should be able to get a salmon breast on brown, butter cup or wheaten but you can not because the wild type allele is in control of the salmon breast. The salmon breast is also a sex influenced trait (estridiol). If the trait was not sex influenced, then wild type males that are columbian restricted, lets say with Db, should have breast color the same as a columbian restricted wild type female but they do not. Females have a red salmon breast while males have a brown/red breast ( like a New Hampshire).

Your example of the silver duck wing and gold duckwing( I edited into my first post before I read your post) is a good example of autosomal red . The silver duckwing have some kind of inhibitor that prevents the expression of the gold. The gold only shows in the males and not females. Salmon breast color is just the opposite.

I have not had any gold or autosomal red inhibitors segregate in my work. I am sure there are a boat load of undocumented modifiers of pheomelanin and eumelanin floating around in the chicken genome. I did have a eumelanin diluter segregate from my easter egger crosses. It was not blue and it may have been lavender. I was going to do some work with the bird but a dog came into my yard and killed the little pullet.


I think that the genetics behind coloration in birds is different in the US, Europe, and Australia. I had an individual tell me that black birds were only extended black or birchen. I showed him an eb bird that I had that was black but he would not believe me. I have a barnevelder sport that is almost completely black and she is eb. Smyth has produced black birds that were wild type, and yes they had a very dark salmon colored breast.

Got to go.

Tim

 

[Krys109uk]

Thanks Tim,

With the eb blacks, the black wyandotte or black leghorns spring to mind.

What a shame the dog getting your birds, it does leave one wondering when one can't continue a project

Have you, by any chance, got any refernces I can read regarding the golden duckwing & autosomal red. I'd be very interested to read this.....I had read this in an older book, but am pretty sure (I'll look again when I get back) Clive Carefoot says something else in "Creative Poultry Breeding", & he's my genetics hero

Do you know the name of the paper describing the original work on Li; seems to be accepted as on the Z choromosme. It is said that Cb does not dilute chick down colour.
I have something which makes chick down white (with a slight pink tinge) on wheaten, which I'd have otherwise have expected to be yellow/orrange.

Diolch yn fawr

 

[tadkerson]

Krys,

I went and checked my notes on Li and it was not Brumbaugh and Hollander that was discussing light down. It was Smyth and he isolated a dominant sex linked gene that produced light down. He crossed a male light brown leghorn with a female New Hampshire. The males from the cross had light down but the adult plumage was not effected.

Hertwig and Rittershaus (1929) were the individuals that isolated the light down gene. I will have to check Hutt's book to get the reference. I think the paper is written in German but I will have to do some more research to make sure.

According to Smyth, the Li gene was carried by a barred rock and diluted brown down to a whitish-yellow. (this information came from Hutt)

That is all I can dig up on Li.

I have no reference on the autosomal red that I can put my fingers on at this time. Either a trait is sex linked or autosomal (Biology 101). Since the gold duck wing are silver, then the red must be caused by an autosomal gene.

I would be interested in what Carefoot has to say.

Tim

 

[seriousbill]

Just to add a little practical Delaware breeding experience to the discussion: A female cross from a Delaware male over a red female, like a New Hamp or a RIR, sometimes will have a little light reddish smut that shows through the silver. Some more than others, but it's never much. Hatchery Delawares sometimes have some.

Also, I have seen first-generation crossed birds produced from a Delaware male over RIRs (production reds, not the deep mahogany show birds) that produced clean silver female birds that looked like Delawares except that, oddly, the neck lacing was hashed and muddy-looking. That was the only difference, but there was no red or gold smut.

Also, while most breeder Delawares are probably eb, some hatchery birds may not be. Wheaten, perhaps?

 

[tadkerson]

Bill,

Thanks for the info. It is possible that delaware carry wheaten. They originally were sports of a barred rock and a new hampshire cross. Dominant wheaten is found in new hampshire so it is possible that delaware would carry wheaten.

I am working on a rhode island silver columbian and a barred rhode island red. I have not decided if I want the columbian pattern ( columbian rock) or the columbian and barred pattern like the delaware in the silver birds.

My first cross produced a black sex linked male. Then I took the black sex linked male and crossed him with rhode island red females. This second cross produced the columbian and delaware patterned birds. They are not a clean silver. They have quit a bit of the red and black pigment in their body plumage. I will have to work on that.

I also have one red male that is barred and looks pretty good. I am going to cross him with my rir and produce more birds that are barred. I will then have enough barred RIR birds to start improving the barring.
I have two different slow feathering genes in my RIR and I will select for that in my future crosses to improve the barring. I also only want one barring gene in the males which is what I have now.

Tim

 

[seriousbill]

Tim,

That's great and very interesting about the red barred birds. What a breeding challenge! And I think I have it tough with my Dels, LOL. Best of luck with the project, and please keep us posted.

 

[Krys109uk]

Thanks for the first hand info on Dalawares Serious Bill; interesting. I wonder what causes the muddiness of the neck lacing.

Tim, thanks for the info. Poultry breeding & Genetics names Li as a restrictor of eumalanin. Do you know the name of Smyth (Jr?) 's paper?

Certainly food for thought about the autosomal red in Golden Duckwing. I can't make it work in my head, doesn't seem logical. Perhaps I'm missing something...I'd like to discuss it further, if you don't mind. But not up to thinking today, not on top form, our little Jack Russell we took from Wales to US has to be euthanised about now & we're 4,000 miles away.

We've been doing red barred (well cuckoo really) in our Orpingtons. Sounds like you're going for the really tidy barring as in some of the exhibition type barred rocks? You've read Clive Carefoot on barring I presume?

Hwyl fawr
Krys

 

[tadkerson]

Krys,

J.R. Smyth Jr. "Genetic control of melanin pigmentation in the fowl" Page 77. This is the paper with the comment about Li.

I would like to produce the barring found in production barred rock. I believe that will be enough for now. I do not have a copy of Dr. Carefoot's book. What does Dr. Care foot's book say the genotype is for a well barred bird?

I believe that the slow feathering gene and tardy feathering genes will slow down feather growth enough to add distinct barring. I also have the columbian gene in the mix.

I have bred the females so that they are mahogany with dark heads and hackles. I introduced melanotic into some of my rir and they have black/mahogany heads and hackles. I also have eb in some of the females and in one of my breeding males. The barred male I have is wheaten. I want to change the E locus to eb in the barred birds. I will eventually have a male line and a female line that I will use to breed the birds.

This site contains a picture of some of the pullets. I sold most of them as layers and kept the best for my work.

http://tadkerson.tripod.com/id1.html

As you can see, I am working on the primary color in the females. I would also like to breed in the dark brown gene to see how it effects the barring. I would love to find a Villafranquina, it would make my work so much easier. I will have to get the gene the hard way from a spitzhauben (which I do have). I will collect some data on the crosses and add it to my book.


Tim

 

[seriousbill]

tadkerson wrote: What does Dr. Care foot's book say the genotype is for a well barred bird?

I'd be interested to know that as well, actually. I have a couple of young Delaware cockerels right now with better tail barring than I'm used to seeing. I'd like to know what I'm dealing with.​