How dogs are NOT livestock

[onthespot]

Quote:
Why is breeding "for pets" wrong? 99% of americans keep their dogs "for pets" and most of those want dogs under twenty pounds. Just by doing the stats, i could say that you are unethical for breeding high energy dogs with over the top working drive (if you are breeding for top compettitive working hunting dogs) that most average Americans dont' have the space, knowledge or time to deal with a dog like what you describe. I will NOT say you are unethical, just say you have your breed preference, and your market. I breed "for the pet market" and have a much wider market, therefor much wider pool of buyers to choose home for my puppies. Neither of us is wrong as long as we breed good quality dogs, screen buyers, guarantee puppies and take back any dog we bred if it doesn't work out. I have no problem doing any of the above. I have had people contact me that have moved to Europe wanting one of my puppes. Money was no object. They had looked all in the surrounding countries and couldn't find one they liked as well as the puppy they got from me. Personally, I think they were not looking hard enough, but my point is, I get many of my puppies sold by referrals, or return buyers. The only puppy I ever got back, the buyer's wife was somewhat unbalanced and unable to care for the puppy properly and I drove two and a half hours at midnight to go get my girl back and instant cash refund. The next buyer bought her four days later and tells me that she is a delight, never could as for a better dog.

Smaller dogs take up less space, are just less work, eat less, and often sell for more. Higher demand. Not unethical. Half of American households have dogs. Most are busy families with kids. Some want what they want, a small, easy going "pet" that is not a lot of work to train, won't shed, easy to live with, looks like they want it to look like, not prone to health problems. A health guarantee that goes with a "breeder" puppy is why a lot of people don't get dogs from the pound, with unknown problems/strong points, health history and temperament/training issues. You can't blame people for wanting a clean slate when they get a dog, and a guarantee.

 

[RabbitMage]

Livestock=edible.

Pet=not edible.

When people become okay with cooking dogs to ease the overpopulation issue, I will happily consider them livestock.

 

[RabbitMage]

Quote:
Because just about any dog can be a good pet. A dog with less than perfect conformation, a dog without the right drive to work, a dog from a shelter, a stray someone found. It isn't hard to find a dog that has the skills to be a pet.

There is no reason to breed specifically FOR a pet dog when we already have an overabundance of them. Unless you dog can do something special, there's no reason to breed it.

 

[SundownWaterfowl]

Quote:
Because just about any dog can be a good pet. A dog with less than perfect conformation, a dog without the right drive to work, a dog from a shelter, a stray someone found. It isn't hard to find a dog that has the skills to be a pet.

There is no reason to breed specifically FOR a pet dog when we already have an overabundance of them. Unless you dog can do something special, there's no reason to breed it.

I agree with this.

 

[suzettex5]

Quote:
Why is breeding "for pets" wrong? 99% of americans keep their dogs "for pets" and most of those want dogs under twenty pounds. Just by doing the stats, i could say that you are unethical for breeding high energy dogs with over the top working drive (if you are breeding for top compettitive working hunting dogs) that most average Americans dont' have the space, knowledge or time to deal with a dog like what you describe. I will NOT say you are unethical, just say you have your breed preference, and your market. I breed "for the pet market" and have a much wider market, therefor much wider pool of buyers to choose home for my puppies. Neither of us is wrong as long as we breed good quality dogs, screen buyers, guarantee puppies and take back any dog we bred if it doesn't work out. I have no problem doing any of the above. I have had people contact me that have moved to Europe wanting one of my puppes. Money was no object. They had looked all in the surrounding countries and couldn't find one they liked as well as the puppy they got from me. Personally, I think they were not looking hard enough, but my point is, I get many of my puppies sold by referrals, or return buyers. The only puppy I ever got back, the buyer's wife was somewhat unbalanced and unable to care for the puppy properly and I drove two and a half hours at midnight to go get my girl back and instant cash refund. The next buyer bought her four days later and tells me that she is a delight, never could as for a better dog.

Smaller dogs take up less space, are just less work, eat less, and often sell for more. Higher demand. Not unethical. Half of American households have dogs. Most are busy families with kids. Some want what they want, a small, easy going "pet" that is not a lot of work to train, won't shed, easy to live with, looks like they want it to look like, not prone to health problems. A health guarantee that goes with a "breeder" puppy is why a lot of people don't get dogs from the pound, with unknown problems/strong points, health history and temperament/training issues. You can't blame people for wanting a clean slate when they get a dog, and a guarantee.

The hundres of thousands of people like you are the reason our shelters are full. The truth of the matter is- you simply dont know what will happen to the 'pets' you are selling. They have the potential to create thousands of more dogs who can end up homeless and euthanized. There is no rationalizing adding to the overpopulation problem.

Maybe you are one of the few people who keeps better track of the dogs produced in your home. Maybe you personally oversee the spaying and neutering of every single dog you produce. Maybe you have done all the testing needed to ensure, to the best of your ability, that your breeding stock is as free as possible from known genetic problems.
Maybe you do follow up on all puppies sold and are willing to take back even older dogs when they become too much for a past purchaser. Do you go to your local shelter to make sure none of your past sold animals have ended up there? If you havent, you dont really know if they are being dumped. Shelters are stuffed with small dogs.

If you are making a profit, you are cutting corners. If you are selling because of high demand, that seems like selling because of a fad, and to me that is unethical. Small dogs bite too, often faces, small dogs get sick, get hurt, need training and excersize, just like big dogs. Small dogs will still poop in the house and chew shoes and be naughty, just like big dogs. You know that. So to say 'people want small dogs because....' is not legit. Its a dog- it needs all the same things as a big dog. To behave as though a small dog needs any less than a big dog is kinda misleading. The vet bills will be the same. You still have to do all the same things, just maybe on a smaller scale, but you cant act like 'oh it has less needs', because it doesnt. It needs more if anything since small dogs are often hurt by small children, thus needing more vet care, not less. Smaller dogs are often known to have neuroligical issues due to the fact that making them smaller, compacts the available brain mass, which in turn can cause a kind of 'short circuting' that can lead to seizures and other brain malfunctions.

I cant think of a single area in the US that needs a pet quality dog breeder. I can think of thousands of places that are full of shelters that are full of pet quality dogs.


All that aside- I know I can not change your mind about what you are doing, and I respect your right to do as you wish with your animals.

 

[arabianequine]

Quote:
Any professional breeder who claims they aren't making any money is either a bad business person or a complete liar. No, they aren't getting wealthy most likely, but they have to have money coming in from somewhere and most of us can't afford to lose money at our business.

I breed ducks. Mainly for personal egg production, but I get the most money from duckling sales. Duckling sales pays for feed for the whole year. No, I am not rich and this isn't my primary business, but between eggs and ducklings I do come out a bit ahead. I am definitely benefiting.

I have an issue with those who claim some moral high ground as their excuse to breed animals while trying to berate others for doing the same.

My thoughts exactly before I read your post...so thank you!

 

[redhen]

Quote:
Any professional breeder who claims they aren't making any money is either a bad business person or a complete liar. No, they aren't getting wealthy most likely, but they have to have money coming in from somewhere and most of us can't afford to lose money at our business.

I breed ducks. Mainly for personal egg production, but I get the most money from duckling sales. Duckling sales pays for feed for the whole year. No, I am not rich and this isn't my primary business, but between eggs and ducklings I do come out a bit ahead. I am definitely benefiting.

I have an issue with those who claim some moral high ground as their excuse to breed animals while trying to berate others for doing the same.

I agree.. someones lying.

 

[RabbitMage]

Quote:
Any professional breeder who claims they aren't making any money is either a bad business person or a complete liar. No, they aren't getting wealthy most likely, but they have to have money coming in from somewhere and most of us can't afford to lose money at our business.

I breed ducks. Mainly for personal egg production, but I get the most money from duckling sales. Duckling sales pays for feed for the whole year. No, I am not rich and this isn't my primary business, but between eggs and ducklings I do come out a bit ahead. I am definitely benefiting.

I have an issue with those who claim some moral high ground as their excuse to breed animals while trying to berate others for doing the same.

I agree.. someones lying.

This issue with this is that breeding isn't a business. It's a hobby.

 

[redhen]

Quote:
I agree.. someones lying.

This issue with this is that breeding isn't a business. It's a hobby.

I think that it should be whatever the person wants it to be. As long as the dogs are being treated right.

 

[onthespot]

suzettex5... The pounds and rescues are also overflowing with Rottweillers, hounds, Great Danes, you name it. Should we all stop breeding dogs? No. Everything you said about small dogs is also true of big dogs. Some bite, including in the face. Some are not good with kids, for many different reasons. Many have epilepsy, skin problems, cancer, eye problems, bad ears, entropion. Does any of that apply to Redyre? Not likely.

I have worked for years in rescue. I have worked grooming and bathing the beloved misbegotten rejects of other peoples' breeding programs, I have photographed over ten thousand rescue dogs and cats to help with placement. Most were not placed. Should I quit taking photos? no. Most people give up dogs with problems they can't deal with. Most of the dogs that are put down are large, untrained, behavior problems, at least at the pound around here. At my pound they keep the small dogs in a separate area and have procedures in place to prevent too many people getting to place holds on them before they are adopted to prevent dealing with the extra unhappy people. In Moreno Valley, the nicer small dogs are literally auctioned off on their available day. I have seen two hundred people show up to bid on a middle aged maltese boy, neutered. I think they got $700 for him. The money goes to their shelter, so I don't see any problem with them getting all the money they can for what the dog is worth. Some people would be appalled.

I do not go to the pound to look for the dogs i sell, because the mostly are sold to people that live in other counties or states. Most of the puppies I have sold live over seventy five miles from me or more. I do keep in touch, as long as they want to keep in touch and want to exchange emails, and am thrilled to get pics of them as they grow. And yes, I am absolutely willing to take back any and ALL dogs I place, whether I bred them or not. For any reason, at any hour, any day of the week.

I have placed over four hundred "other dogs" myself, with only one return as a poor fit. This includes any size from German Shepherd, blue tick, cattle dogs, terriers, bichons, chihuahua, border collie, doxie, you name it. Some are young, some old, sometimes blind, or missing a leg, sometimes they take months, MANY months of rehab before they are ready to go, to get their skin issues under control, get their teeth fixed, get them trained into the household ways instead of the yard dog ways. I do not spend a lot of time obedience training resuce dogs, other than "off" and how to walk on a leash, and "drop it" other than that, the new owners get to train them however they want. Their dog will be healthy, or any/all known issues disclosed, they will be able to go for a walk, sleep quietly in a crate when they go to their new home, and eat a treat from their hand without over reaching. They get NO written health guarantee. They do get a written adoption agreement that they will contact me first if they can no longer provide a home for the dog. Even if the dog is eleven years old, arthritic, bites and smells bad, I'd take it back. I would either fix it up again and place it, or euthanize it. No one has ever brought me back a dog in that shape, just the one schnoodle that had territorial issues they were not prepared to deal with, and didn't show at my home.

Any dog of any size needs attention, vet care, discipline, love. Some are much easier to train and handle. I'd wager that an average mini poodle is much easier to train for an average family than a high drive working hunting bred dog. So yes, they take training, but they are bred to just get along, not be too much trouble, not too destructive, willing to please, laid back personality.
I can't tell you how many times I have heard back "Wow, it only took our puppy a DAY to get house trained. Never makes a mistake. We LOVE him/her so much!" The pics people send me back are of well groomed, well cared for dogs. I have no reason to believe that the other well screened buyers somehow are hiding from me what bad care they are giving the dog I sold.

I hate it that there are people who don't care for the dogs they have. I don't sell to people like that. I never sell a dog that is going to be a known problem for anyone else. I put them down. Rescue, or the occasional puppy I have bred myself. One was a cutie pie teacup boy. bad hip socket. Only one I ever had with that problem, but he was put down. I spayed and placed his mother, even though she was a stunning red girl, sweet as pie, coat to DIE for, and she talked almost like a human. She lives down by the beach now, happy as she could be. The man who has her has gotten a few more from me over the years. Yes, we keep in touch. No pics or emails, but we call from time to time and talk poodles.

I have not had a litter in a year and a half, but I reserve the right to and have not spayed my dogs. I will breed them again soon. I was just too busy the past couple years (ever since I got chickens, LOL) Anyhow, thanks for sharing your points of view, everyone. I do read and give thought to all posts I read here about dogs.