How dogs are NOT livestock

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Why is breeding "for pets" wrong? 99% of americans keep their dogs "for pets" and most of those want dogs under twenty pounds. Just by doing the stats, i could say that you are unethical for breeding high energy dogs with over the top working drive (if you are breeding for top compettitive working hunting dogs) that most average Americans dont' have the space, knowledge or time to deal with a dog like what you describe. I will NOT say you are unethical, just say you have your breed preference, and your market. I breed "for the pet market" and have a much wider market, therefor much wider pool of buyers to choose home for my puppies. Neither of us is wrong as long as we breed good quality dogs, screen buyers, guarantee puppies and take back any dog we bred if it doesn't work out. I have no problem doing any of the above. I have had people contact me that have moved to Europe wanting one of my puppes. Money was no object. They had looked all in the surrounding countries and couldn't find one they liked as well as the puppy they got from me. Personally, I think they were not looking hard enough, but my point is, I get many of my puppies sold by referrals, or return buyers. The only puppy I ever got back, the buyer's wife was somewhat unbalanced and unable to care for the puppy properly and I drove two and a half hours at midnight to go get my girl back and instant cash refund. The next buyer bought her four days later and tells me that she is a delight, never could as for a better dog.

Smaller dogs take up less space, are just less work, eat less, and often sell for more. Higher demand. Not unethical. Half of American households have dogs. Most are busy families with kids. Some want what they want, a small, easy going "pet" that is not a lot of work to train, won't shed, easy to live with, looks like they want it to look like, not prone to health problems. A health guarantee that goes with a "breeder" puppy is why a lot of people don't get dogs from the pound, with unknown problems/strong points, health history and temperament/training issues. You can't blame people for wanting a clean slate when they get a dog, and a guarantee.

The hundres of thousands of people like you are the reason our shelters are full. The truth of the matter is- you simply dont know what will happen to the 'pets' you are selling. They have the potential to create thousands of more dogs who can end up homeless and euthanized. There is no rationalizing adding to the overpopulation problem.

Maybe you are one of the few people who keeps better track of the dogs produced in your home. Maybe you personally oversee the spaying and neutering of every single dog you produce. Maybe you have done all the testing needed to ensure, to the best of your ability, that your breeding stock is as free as possible from known genetic problems.
Maybe you do follow up on all puppies sold and are willing to take back even older dogs when they become too much for a past purchaser. Do you go to your local shelter to make sure none of your past sold animals have ended up there? If you havent, you dont really know if they are being dumped. Shelters are stuffed with small dogs.

If you are making a profit, you are cutting corners. If you are selling because of high demand, that seems like selling because of a fad, and to me that is unethical. Small dogs bite too, often faces, small dogs get sick, get hurt, need training and excersize, just like big dogs. Small dogs will still poop in the house and chew shoes and be naughty, just like big dogs. You know that. So to say 'people want small dogs because....' is not legit. Its a dog- it needs all the same things as a big dog. To behave as though a small dog needs any less than a big dog is kinda misleading. The vet bills will be the same. You still have to do all the same things, just maybe on a smaller scale, but you cant act like 'oh it has less needs', because it doesnt. It needs more if anything since small dogs are often hurt by small children, thus needing more vet care, not less. Smaller dogs are often known to have neuroligical issues due to the fact that making them smaller, compacts the available brain mass, which in turn can cause a kind of 'short circuting' that can lead to seizures and other brain malfunctions.

I cant think of a single area in the US that needs a pet quality dog breeder. I can think of thousands of places that are full of shelters that are full of pet quality dogs.


All that aside- I know I can not change your mind about what you are doing, and I respect your right to do as you wish with your animals.

i think the reason for overflowing shelters is becouse they are too picky on who gets the dog
 
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Agree. I think you summed up the difference between breeding rabbits and dogs VERY well.
 
Well, you certainly have an answer for everything dont you?

I have to say, I simply dont agree with what you are doing. That doesnt mean I think you are a bad person, nor do I feel the need to make any personal judgements as to your personal character. As this is getting to the point that I feel you are being rather personal by assigning negative attributes to my personality, I will not participate any further in this discussion.


Sorry to the OP if this thread is shut down, it was not my intent. (nor do I feel the need to report, so I'm not)


Thank you.
 
This is a fascinating topic and quite a few good points have been raised.
My preferences when choosing another dog would be:

- almost definitely not a papered pure breed - closed gene pool with too much possibility of an inbred recessive gene popping up.

- definitely not a puppy mill baby - unhealthy and under socialized.

- quite possibly a back yard bred pup where both parents could be viewed, even if they're two different breeds. A family who loves and cares for their dogs but had an oops litter is fine with me if the pups are loved and handled from birth.

- definitely not a neutered pup less than 8 months old. There are several very valid reasons not neutering a pup before puberty (a quick google search on this can be quite enlightening).

- a shelter dog or a craigslist dog, or just a stray hanging out behind a gas station might be ok, too.

A sane, sensible are the main criteria I'd look for. The appearance of good health would also be important. It seems quite simple really to be able to pick up a decent dog however simple isn't always easy.

As for dogs not being livestock, well, being livestock isn't necessarily a bad thing. For the most part livestock have some value and therefore it is in the best interests of the livestock owner to keep their animals healthy, or at the very least, have their basic needs met. Many a "pet" has none of it's needs met and is not valued at all. It becomes a nuisance to be disposed of.
 
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Just FYI, over the last two years I've raised nine show-bred puppies and also adopted/fostered nine rescues.

Of the rescues, one was purebred. He went back to his breeder and is living happily in California now.

The Papillon/Cavalier mix has a hideous overbite and other structural issues.
The Dachshund-Jack Russell has angular limb problems and is already arthritic in his front feet at age 2. He came with two of his siblings; one had longer legs and no problems but his sister has the same stuff he does.
The Catahoula X has hip dysplasia.
The Malti-poo has an underbite and attendant dental problems and major temperament issues.
The Boston-Poodle had to be put down due to epilepsy.

The show-bred puppies come from generations of health-tested dogs. They may end up with looser hips than I'd like because that's the nature of their breed, but their line is well established and nationally known for not producing symptomatic dogs. I know exactly how long each ancestor has lived and what they died of. I could absolutely PROMISE owners that they would not end up with heritable eye problems, front-end deformities, or temperament problems.

Purebred doesn't equal disease. Disease equals disease. Mixed-breed dogs are not healthier than purebreds. Poor breeding within ANY population, no matter how unrelated, gives you unhealthy dogs. And mixed-breed dogs are rarely ACTUALLY mixed-breed - i.e., they are not hybrids. When you put together a Poodle and a Lab, you're combining genes that have only been separated for a couple hundred years at most. They have the exact same genes for skin problems, heart problems, Cushings, and epilepsy, and you're not making a healthier decision breeding a Lab and a Poodle than a Lab and a Lab. That's the honest truth. If you want to *actually* get a hybrid dog, you'd have to put together one of the genuine old sighthounds - Sloughi, for example - with an European breed or an Asian breed. Not a Maltese and a Pomeranian, or ANYTHING and a poodle, or anything and a shepherd.

There are good breeders who linebreed, who work within AKC, who work outside AKC, who mix breeds, who only outcross, and so on and so on. It's not glomming onto one strategy that makes you a good breeder or makes your puppies worth buying. It's knowing what you're doing and putting together dogs who are as likely to succeed as possible. It's absolutely fine with me if you or any other owner buys a mixed-breed or non-AKC dog. But make sure your mixed-breed breeder passes the same tests and same qualifications as a show or field breeder, and do NOT be fooled into thinking that purebred is unhealthy and mixed is healthy.
 
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I guess you've not heard about some of my neighbors who like to wok their dogs....
 
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I guess you've not heard about some of my neighbors who like to wok their dogs....

Again, I'm talking about what our culture generally thinks. Generally, Americans do not eat dog.
 
If the economy keeps getting worse, that line between pet and livestock is going to get even blurrier....many more people woking the dog
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Growing up we had a pure bred Irish Setter. She was AWESOME. Loyal, protective, friendly, and the best hunter you ever saw. Half the time when you took her hunting you never even had to fire the gun. She would point, you would give her a hand signal, and she would go get a rabbit and plop it at your feet
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She would just run it down she was so darn fast. We got her when my sister was only 3 so the dog and sis were bestest buds. I once saw my sister playing with the neighbor and she fell down. Out of nowhere, Rusty runs up, licks her face, gently grabbed her arm in her mouth and helped her up and then took off again. Apparently Rusty had a "spot" at the edge of the woods she had been using to keep an eye on sis. She would rest there in the shade and watch her while she played. We had no clue...LOL

For an Irish Setter, she was "too small". Not worthy of breeding because she didn't conform to breed standard for size. As a family dog for people who hunted, she was perfect.

I also have friends with a little designer mutt. No, they didn't pay lots of money for this dog. They got it from an idiot relative who bred it then couldn't sell it. The dog is a Peek-a-chit according to the owners
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This dog is wicked smart, great with kids, and takes her job of chasing rabbits out of the garden very seriously.
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She can identify and fetch her different toys by name. Her owners didn't train her, they would just play with her and one day playing around said "Where is your toy? Where is goofy?". The dog took off and came back with the little Disney goofy toy. Then they played for a while and she said "Where's your bear". She almost fell over when the dog got the bear and brought it to her. They eventually figured out the dog knew 6 different toys by name.

They later figured out she knew people by name too. Ask the dog "where's Gabby?" and the dog will hunt down the grand daughter. The dog knows all the family and many friends by name and she can be used as a 4 legged intercom
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So, is there a point to my rambling? Maybe? I have insomnia, so no telling if this will make sense, but.....
What a family wants and needs in a dog and what a "breed standard" calls for in a dog aren't always the same. There are great purebreds and great mutts. Also there are mean purebreds, unhealthy purebreds as well as unhealthy mutts. As long as a dog is well cared for, I really don't care about the pedigree. Don't breed a dog unless the parents are healthy and you have good homes for the puppies. If you adopt a dog, don't treat it like a lawn ornament. If you are working all darn day and going out all night, don't get a dog. If you can't control your children, you can't be a proper "pack leader" for a dog. I know idiots who have spent boatloads of money on professionally bred purebred dogs and then end up giving them away because the dog needs too much attention, chewed up the cell phone again, doesn't listen, etc... (We all know that is an owner problem and not a dog problem)

There are no guarantees when it comes to animals. They are a big responsibility. Don't take it lightly.
 
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