How dogs are NOT livestock

[abluechipstock]

this is my opinion which everyone has one LOL! i've been breeding mini dachshunds for a couple years now, one thing that i do is i want to enhance the akc standard, i've always wanted the best looking dogs conformationally and temperment wise, i don't breed just for pets, you get plenty of them when breeding show dogs, and show dogs should be pets too, one thing that makes me mad is when people that are breeding just for pets always want to emphasise champion bloodlines, to me that's a money making scheme, as for making money, where's mine LOL! i have spent more money than i ever made, i do this because i love my breed and want the best, i've spent tons on stud fees, vet care, proper nutrition, i have a regular job so i don't need the money from them, i've lost whole litters, had a c-section, a dog go hypocalcimic, so vet bills are always there, i have a handler that shows my dogs that costs a lot of money but i want to prove my breeding program, i've had to start all over because of bad advice from people that are unethical but were supposed to be these great show breeders, so i don't judge anyone for wanting to have a litter it's our given right, and we as animal owners need to be aware that if these national animal groups that want to stop dogs from being bred will end up hurting every dog owner so be careful what you support, the only organization i endorse is the aspca no other, they have the attitude that you won't find a good breeders dogs in a shelter or a puppy mill which leads me to another thing, all my dogs/puppies go with a sales contract and spay neuter contract and i screen my buyers very well and have refused many people even my own family members, i truely care about my dogs, they are little personalities and have feelings and i want every dog i sell/give away back if the owner can't keep them, i never want one of the dogs i produced in a shelter or another bad situation, all i ask is that people who want to breed their dogs, get all the information they can about the breed, do specific health screening for that breed and make a conscience decision if their dog is good enough to breed, again these are standards i have set to go by so i can be as ethical as possible and i'm not judging anyone because we all love our freedom to own and breed our animals as we see fit, i hope this helps everyone, i ramble a lot so if i got off subject sorry

 

[turney31]

Quote:
Any professional breeder who claims they aren't making any money is either a bad business person or a complete liar. No, they aren't getting wealthy most likely, but they have to have money coming in from somewhere and most of us can't afford to lose money at our business.

I breed ducks. Mainly for personal egg production, but I get the most money from duckling sales. Duckling sales pays for feed for the whole year. No, I am not rich and this isn't my primary business, but between eggs and ducklings I do come out a bit ahead. I am definitely benefiting.

I have an issue with those who claim some moral high ground as their excuse to breed animals while trying to berate others for doing the same.

 

[welsummerchicks]

All anyone can do is do what they think is right.

I think breeding dogs should be left completely to experts who devote their lives to it and look at it as their passion and their responsibility. There are too many unwanted pups in our country.

I want someone who understands their blood lines intimately, not just how they will do at a show, but how they will train, how they will age, what illnesses they might be prone to, and I want a breeder who is a ruthless, absolutely ruthless culler of genetic problems.

I think noting that a pup's sire is a champion is good. I also want to know if the pup's parents won any working titles, such as obedience, agility or herding. I feel that also tells me better, how the pup may turn out.

Excessively shy dogs would have a hard time getting a championship, and a show dog can be excused if it isn't possible to examine it(I saw one get excused today on a telivised dog show). A dog needs to withstand some stress, noise and excitement to show in breed.

My pup's sire was as far as could be documented, a world champion. To do that he had to travel all over the world and do his thing. He had to put up with a lot and he had to be calm and work in a variety of environments.

He was a magnificent dog. He had a very, very kind temperament and was really incredible. At shows when they would read off all the titles he had won, he would go around the ring and one after the other, lovingly greet every single person he knew, and that was a lot of people. Knowing what he had done and how he had handled it, I knew my pup would be a great companion on my adventures. She was too small, and had the wrong coat texture to succeed in showing, but we learned over 13 and a half years, all the greatness that was in him, she received...and he really was, a great dog, truly great.

 

[RabbitMage]

It's still puzzling to me that I put more time, effort, and research into breeding my rabbits than a lot of people seem to put into breeding their dogs...

 

[suzettex5]

Quote:
So, if your puppies are going to other states, are they fixed before they leave your place? How do your screen people if you've never met them? How do you know you arent contributing to an areas over-population problem? You must be advertising by more than word of mouth (in my opinion) to be selling alot of animals to far away homes. There is just no real way to be 100% sure of the perspective buyer if you never meet them. Nor can you be sure the animal is spayed or neutered.

And of course the people who dont keep the dog, or are not good owners dont send pics or emails or call you. Who would admit to such things if they didnt have too. Obviously bad owners dont advertise.
There are also people who *think* they want a puppy, decide its too much, are then too embarrassed to tell the breeder, and just dump or give it away, or re-sell it. It happens over and over and over.

Here's a scary FYI for everone- I used to live in a town with a high percentage of Asian immigrants. The elders thought nothing of eating dog. There were some people who would literally get puppies and dogs from anywhere (cheap, free, a few bucks, etc) and raise them for meat. This is NOT an urban myth, it happened, and to people I knew personally. I dont have a problem with people eating anything that is normal for their culture, but just so people out in cyber-world know- the pound is not the only place your dog can end up. Just because a breeder may sell a dog/puppy for $$$ doesnt mean that dog wont end up being re-sold alot cheaper and to a bad place.

As for a puppy beinghousetrained in ONE DAY? Yeah, right. Not happening. I dont know of any breed that is physically capable (bladder size) of being fully housetrained before at least 4 months old (possibly 3 in larger breeds). But, as soon as I say that there will be 50,000 people responding with "OH yeah?!?! Well MY precious Poopsie was housebroke in utero, so THERE!!

) So, please be aware I do know there have been exceptions to that rule.

I too have worked with animals and dogs for more than 15 years and I have seen alot. With all your experience, you just have to be aware that not EVERY puppy will have a happy ending. Why be personally responsible for even one innocent animal being harmed or destroyed if it is your power to prevent it?

Sure, you can continue to breed your dogs. More power to ya. Its certainly your right.

Its tough choice for everyone- Pet store dogs, rescue dogs, shelter dogs, back yard breeder dogs, professional breeder dogs, designer dogs, stray dogs, oops liter dogs, the choices are soooo many. Its a hot topic and can get people riled up as quick as a religious/politcal debate between homeschoolers and public schoolers.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

So whats wrong with people eating dogs? Just because you dont like it dont make it wrong.

You can have a litter house trained at 4 weeks by the way.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

Quote:

 

[RiverOtter]

Yes, I think that breeding dogs should be left to those who are passionate about it. Because it is different. Lets take Ducks for example.

A duck can start reproducing itself at 6 months with no ill effects to it's health. Also, with no ill effects to it's health, it can forage for some or even most of it's food. The food we feed it to keep it healthy is a relatively inexpensive grain. To maintain health, you can isolate ducks and they're still good ducks. Because ducks don't live in the house with people or do any jobs that require interaction, a good duck is one that looks like it's breed standard and makes lots and lots of eggs. If your duck doesn't do this, you eat it and go on to the next duck. If a duck's offspring are unhealthy, you eat them all and get different ducks.
Short of someone leaving a very small infant strapped in a carseat in the duckpen, it is insanely unlikely for even the most mental of ducks to kill a child.

Dogs have health problems that shorten their lifespan if bred too young, so you should wait a minimum of 2 years (3 is better) before breeding them. That's 2-3 years of feeding them a far more expensive meat based diet. Because dogs go mental if you keep them isolated, you have increased medical cost, like vaccinations, and increased time input.
Because we don't keep dogs to eat their meat or puppies or harvest their fur - we keep them for their minds - it's a lot harder to define a good dog. They not only have to look the part and be healthy, they have to act the part as well. Poodles need to be friendly and entertaining. Retrievers need to be athletic and retrieve.
Now, if you have a duck that doesn't lay - you can eat it.
But if you have a Retriever that doesn't retrieve, well, now you have to find someone who is happy to feed it that more expensive meat-based diet and provide that more indepth medical care and increased time input for the rest of it's life anyway. Or you have to do it yourself. If a dogs offspring don't live up to standard, you STILL have to find someone (or do it yourself) to keep them. This cuts into the bottom line.
And - because what we want from dogs is what they do with us - not only do dogs have less offspring then ducks to choose replacement breeding stock from BUT the choosing is far more complicated. Because if you have a very healthy, beautiful dog who doesn't ALSO have a stellar personality, you have no business breeding it. Because dogs live in close and constant proximity, someone can be hurt. And that is your fault if you knew the parents had me natl instability. Not a worry with ducks.

It ALL cuts into the bottom line. So the argument "Since I make money when I breed ducks means dog breeders must be either doing it wrong or lying when they say there's no profit in it", that logic is not sound.

Well, one might argue, Why are you discouraging people from breeding dogs just because the dog has a great personality?
Because Nature is cruel and harsh. To Nature, a perfect specimen is expensive, she will produce the least that can get by. This is why cave creatures lack eyes, because Nature looks at everything and says "why bother?" and if she can get away with doing less, she will.
So if you don't constantly obsess about only breeding the most healthy, physically perfectly functioning creatures, then the bodies that house those personalities degrade generation by generation.
"I think it's good enough" is NOT good enough.

To breed dogs right, you have to do it ALL. Saying that if you're not willing to go through all the steps to do it right if you're going to do it at all is not "taking the moral high ground" It is a simple statement of fact.

If I did anything else that had this much potential to harm living things - people would be going nuts if I wasn't more responsible. If your dog has 7 pups and you find homes for all of them, that is not only the lives of those 7 dogs you've affected (and I feel that is no small thing in itself) but the lives of those 7 families. That is all the people that all of those 7 families know who could be hurt if that pup is mental - or even poorly matched so it becomes fear aggressive. I don't care if they're small dogs. A Pomeranian killed a baby not so long ago.
That is 7 families of children who will cry their eyes out at night if Rover has to go to the pound because the family can't cope. Who will be devastated if he can't play fetch with them because his hips are bad. Not really an issue with ducks.
And if you're not thinking of all that and more before you breed your dog, then you shouldn't do it. Call me a snob.

 

[suzettex5]

Quote:
Didnt say I didnt like it. Like I said- I dont have a problem with anyone eating any culturally based foods. However, dog is NOT a food source culturally in the USA.

PLEASE share how you 100%, reliably housebreak puppies by 4 weeks old. A 4 week old chihuahua puppy has a bladder the size of a small, shelled walnut, and a brain size to match. How in the world are you getting a 4 weeker to remember go potty outside on its own every time????

I really, really want to know. MY experience has been to take a puppy outside right after food and drink and stay out till it has pottied while giving verbal command. Now, to prevent any and all accidents, I would have to go outside at least every 30 minutes to be 100% sure it did not 'go' inside, (and with a whole litter of puppies? how do you keep track of them all?) who does that? I just cant see it being based in reality, unless I am missing some vital info. I am faaaaarrr from being a professional dog trainer, so I am happy to admit I dont know all there is to know, but a whole liter, 100% housebroke, at 4 weeks?? Is this a breed specific thing, or just a one time experience?

I GOTTA know your secret!

By the way, I dont consider a puppy housebroke if it has ANY accidents not medically related, NOR if, when it goes to a new home, it whizzes or poo's all over the new owners floors. Housebroke implies it DOES NOT potty in the house at all. I just dont buy into the whole "Well, its housebroke HERE, but it may have a few accidents as it adjusts to your new home".

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

The eating dogs thing was more aimed this comment

Pet=not edible..

along with what you said. Dogs are legal food source in the US..... US culture? It is if you are from a culture that does that. US has no set culture yet. It is a still melding of many cultures. European culture may not like it but saying the US culture frowns on it off of that would be pushing a fine line I'm not crossing.


To train a dog that young You need a box with more than one room. A big play room an a small bath room. I use wood chips in there but grass is good. I cover it with a towel for the first week or two. At 3 weeks or a little before you will see them start smelling the ground before "going". That's when you put them in the other room. Then let them find there way back to the bed on there own. Every time you see them trying to go in the wrong place you get on to them an move them. Then clean the mistakes with an enzyme cleaner. After about a week they will have it an you can put a dog door over the entrance to the bathroom. Usually no more messes after that. When they go to the new home they have the option of a dog door or a litter box but you have to keep them confined to that area for a few days so they don't forget where it is. Not sure there is a way to do it where they wait to be let out. Anyway that's how I do it.

I've had good luck with this setup but I don't think I would call it 100%. The big thing is to start as young as you can.​