How many wine makers do we have here?

[Totalcolour]

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The reaction of ammonia with phosphoric acid results in a water-soluble ammonia salt. This can be used beneficially in the production of wine when nitrogen levels are low. Stuck fermentations are often the result of low levels of nitrogen in the must.

Since the big invention of big tractors and plows and improvements and availability of commercial fertilizers, the nutrient content of the crops being grown has actually decreased. (brix levels in corn are actually 40% lower now than they where back in the 40's.) One would think with all the tons of fertilizer being applied every year to all the farm lands that our crops would be nutrient rich. Not true, science seems to want to rely on a few nutrients, Nitrogen, Phosphate and Potassium as the main nutrient supplement for growing all crops. Things like Calcium, Sulfur and Magnesium are often overlooked. Not to mention other micro nutrients such as Iron, Nickle, Copper, Zinc, Molybinate, Manganese. I Have left out a few agriculture knows about as necessary and I am sure there are others that science hasnt figured out that are necessary also.

Also very true. However, depleted soils can be helped with additions of inorganic and organic compounds. Yes, it's true a lot of larger farming corporations have depleted soils by over-croppping and incorrect usage of fertilizers. Once a "manure" has been composted, it can make an excellent soil amendment and fertilizer. In fact, my chickens and ducks "deposit" a wonderful fertilizer (manure) on my ground daily, and my land hasn't suffered from it

My point, is that grapes are not immune to nutrient deficiencies and neither are any of the other many fruits that are being used to produce wine. If the nutrients are not in the soil, or are deficient in the soil, the plants growing there will also be deficient. With this in mind, it only seems reasonable to assume that adding a nutrient package to our wines only makes perfect sense. With that in mind, I point out the problems encountered with the tripple super phosphate and nutrient tieup, while it might seem like a good ideal, the phosphate is only one of the necessary nutrients needed to make a good wine. Without testing of the wine must for the proper nutrient levels, adding anything is only a guess.

BUT, we are not talking about farming and crops, we are talking about wine, and the use of small amounts of nutrients added to the must. You are comparing the reaction of these nutrients on soil, to their reaction in wine. Not the same at all. For most hobbyists, the expensive lab equipment is not available, and even if it were, skill levels are usually too low to be any use.

I am not trying to persuade anyone to add DAP, or not add it to their must. I DO encourage the hobbyist to read available materials before making a choice. A person cannot make an informed decision, unless he is himself, informed.

As stated in my last post, there are some excellent books, written by professors, chemists and winemakers, which give complete explanations of the reasons to do certain things, the consequences of not doing them, and the pros and cons attached to them.

I still stand by my earlier statement - Alcohol, which is a psychoactive drug, is a far worse toxin than the minute traces of DAP that "MAY" be left in a wine after fermentation is complete.​

 

[2overeasy000]

First, bravo.

Second, the most effective use of DAP is putting out wild fires.

Third, other major reasons for lowered brix levels in corn are: lack of genetic diversity due to GMOs. Corn is no longer grown for human consumption and has barely any nutrition left in it, due to focusing on mass quantity instead of any semblance of quality. Another words, it's not supposed to be good anymore, there's just supposed to be a lot of it. Such is all things nowadays. I think it's fair to say that most of us are on this site because we have our own flocks. Why? It's a lot easier to just go to the store and buy battery cage eggs and a lot cheaper as well. I would guess most of us also grow our own gardens. Personally, even though I know that there are easier alternatives, I choose to have my own compost pile. Reuse my own food scraps and make my own fertilizer for growing my own food. Why? I know that it is healthier for me and the planet as well. Sure it is more work, but it is more rewarding also. Quality over quantity. Do things the right way, not just the easiest. And so do I homebrew!

 

[Totalcolour]

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Right on!

Yeah, the "ick factor" kicks in when I see the chickens scratching around in the compost heap for bugs, but I know they are getting some decent nutrition. And the ducks, makes me positively ill to watch them eat those huge slugs and other nasties. But, they convert it into tasty, quality meat, and I just banish those awful images when I have a tasty duck breast on my dinner plate.

 

[Totalcolour]

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All yeasts have a ceiling above which they will no longer ferment. Different yeasts have different ceilings - some as low as 11-12% and others close to 17%. {Edited to correct - according to LALLEMAND, some of their yeasts can tolerate 18% alcohol}

If the yeast you have chose has a low tolerance to alcohol, the addition of extra sugar will only have the effect of creating sweetness. This method is sometimes employed to create a sweeter, desert style wine.

If you are aiming for a dry wine, this method can create problems. Unless you know the starting s.g, and the gravity of the syrup you are adding, you could end up with an un-wanted sweet wine.

Additionally, since most yeasts are not monoculture, you could end up with a fermentation that stops when the primary yeast has died. Since the secondary yeast is in very small quatities, it would take some times to reach a level where it could start to re-ferment (AFTER YOU HAVE BOTTLED IT) and you could very well end up with popped corks or even an exploding bottle.

A friend of mine lost a eye from an exploding bottle. So, keep track of everything you do to prevent accidents.

 

[muddstopper]

BUT, we are not talking about farming and crops, we are talking about wine, and the use of small amounts of nutrients added to the must. You are comparing the reaction of these nutrients on soil, to their reaction in wine. Not the same at all.

Total, You completely missed the point of my last statements. My explainations of the Dap and how it came to be was simply to point out that just because you Can make a more purer form of a element or nutrient, doesnt mean that it is now a better product. Dap was created as a alternative phophorous source for agriculture. It is made by stripping all the other nutrients that occur naturally with the rock phosphate, and then trying to make the product better by adding other selected nutrients. All of this tinkering and refineing has been proven to not be as great a soil amendment as it was intended. As a large Agriculture dependant country, most of our population would starve with out the use of phosphate in growing our crops. Still, that doesnt mean that our food supply is better because we use Phosphate, it only means we have more of it. I feel the same way about using the dap in makeing wine, does it actually make the wine better, or does it just produce more of it. Being better can be very subjective since not everyone is going to have the same taste. Simply adding Dap because somegreat wine maker says thats the way they make their wine, only tells me that they make their wine a different way than I choose to make mine.

I will stand by my eairler statement that adding any nutrients without testing for nutrient levels first, is only guessing at what you really need. As hobbiest, we probably cant afford to to send a sample of every batch of fruit somewhere to be tested, and since i dont know of any wine makers that could tell me what would be considered a proper nutrient level for making wine, testing would be pointless. Could my wines benefit from the addition af Dap, who knows. I will probably try a batch or 2 using dap in the future, just because you have made me think to hard on this subject.​

 

[Totalcolour]

Muddstopper,

I most certainly agree with you about DAP and agriculture. No, it doesn't become a better product because it is made better or is better refined. IT IS A MORE USEFUL PRODUCT WHEN WE KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY USE IT.

Here we are talking about DAP and wine. Or, more precisely, wine nutrients. I DO NOT USE straight DAP in my musts. I use a wine nutrient. It contains some DAP, but also other micronutrients that yeast require to live and thrive. Each living entity has a different nutritional requirement. Just as we humans could not live on a diet that goats live on, so yeasts need different nutrients than we do.

The producet I use is made by Lallemande and is called Fermaid K. Fermaid is a blended yeast nutrient adapted to the fermentation of grape musts, juice from concentrate, fruit musts, corn syrup and honey. Proper use of Fermaid reduces the risk of sluggish or stuck fermentations. Added during the fermentation, Fermaid-K is a complex wine yeast nutrient formulation that provides DAP, free amino acids, yeast hulls, unsaturared fatty acids, sterols, and micronutrients such as magnesium sulfate, thiamin, folic acid, biotin, calcium pantothenate, and other vitamins and minerals.

These products have been studied by far more knowledgeable people than me. No, they aren't infallible - we know this because for so many years incorrect use of DAP has resulted in damage to many thousands of acres of land, all done by "knowledgeable people". We now know better. In a hundred years we will know even more.

BUT, just because we have done bad things with DAP in the past, doesn't mean we should toss it out - let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Now for the important bit!

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I'm not advocating the use of a chemical if you aren't comfortable with it. However, if you would care to try it, I would gladly "exchange" a recipe with you. I would makes yours, and you could make mine. Then we could compare notes. Might be an interesting experiment.
(But don't use DAP, it's not food grade, use a nutrient specifically designed for wine!)

 

[muddstopper]

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I'm not advocating the use of a chemical if you aren't comfortable with it. However, if you would care to try it, I would gladly "exchange" a recipe with you. I would makes yours, and you could make mine. Then we could compare notes. Might be an interesting experiment.
(But don't use DAP, it's not food grade, use a nutrient specifically designed for wine!)

I kind of figured on using dap specificly packaged for wine makeing. The big bags of dap fertilizer are probably to coarse grained to be of much use in wine makeing.

I feel you have given some good advice toward reading material and research and I hope my explaination of what dap is and how it is made might be benefitual to some also. At any rate, for me to continue talking about Dap fertilizers would probably make me look argumentative, which I dont intend to be. With that said, I am going to let the Dap rest, at least for now

.

On another note, I visited my favorite kitchen store today with the hopes of buying some more MarcoPolo Blackberry syrup. I have some tame blackerry wine makeing and I just am not satified with the taste. The taste could be described as sour. The blackberries where sour tasteing when we picked them. I dont think its a matter of sugar, I think the berries just dont have a good taste. At any rate, My intentions where to add some of the blackberry syrup to the secondary and try to get it to restart fermenting. The Marcopolo brand of syrup is 70% real juice and sugar, without any preservatives added. My problem is, the kitchen store was out of the syrup and didnt know when another shipment would be in. Shipping cost make internet purchaseing a little expensive, the shipping costing more than the product. So, now I am looking for some suggestions as to how to get rid of the sour taste from this batch of wine. I dont think the sour taste is a sign of spoilage, the wine taste just like the berries tasted picked straight from the vine.

 

[Totalcolour]

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Hmmm, I've had that problem too, and I THINK it is the high level of acidity in not quite ripe berries. Have you tried adding some glycerine? That sometimes makes the mouthfeel a bit softer. You might have to blend it with a "softer" wine if you can't get some syrup and restart it.

And, it was with blackberrries that I had the problem too. I ended up tipping mine out because I couldn't fix it, it just ended up being sour and sweet!

Carpe Vinum

 

[oesdog]

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Hmmm, I've had that problem too, and I THINK it is the high level of acidity in not quite ripe berries. Have you tried adding some glycerine? That sometimes makes the mouthfeel a bit softer. You might have to blend it with a "softer" wine if you can't get some syrup and restart it.

And, it was with blackberrries that I had the problem too. I ended up tipping mine out because I couldn't fix it, it just ended up being sour and sweet!

Carpe Vinum

Well only just managed to get bottled 40 beers and 20 more to go later. It looks like beer and DH says it tastes like Beer so i am a happy lady!!!!

I was thinking of trying blackberry wine too - We have Peach on the go but I just don;t seem to be getting time to bottle it! I hope the wine will be ok just STRONGER!!!!

Mudstopper - DH said he still thinks your issue is with Sugar!!!!!!!

Oesdog

 

[muddstopper]

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I am going to keep looking for some syrup to mix in it. I can buy frozen blackberries at the grocery store and I might go that route.

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To be honest, the blackberries where big and plump and black when we picked them, but straight off the cane, they tasted sour. I am thinking unripe is probably the issue, but I am not sure just adding more sugar will fix the problem. I might try adding a little more sugar and see what that does for it, but only because I drove a hundred miles to pick the berries and I paid a big price for them, and just hate to have to pour it out.