How much should I feed a large group of animals? UPDATE Page 4 - #32.

[kuntrygirl]

Quote:
Well being as though, I have no idea about formulations, dimensions, etc., I better just go with your recommendations and call it a night. I don't know anything about conversions or adjusting ratios. I want a high protein percentage the same as you, so I will take your advice and tell them to create my feed like yours.

I will fax them my information and let them take a look at it and see what response I get. I will keep everyone updated.

Thanks to everyone who offered ideas, suggestions and comments. I have learned a lot from this thread.

 

[kuntrygirl]

I faxed the the recipe that Olive Hill mentioned. I added a few other ingredients (just for the heck of it). The guy called me back this morning and this is what he said.

These are the ingredients that I faxed to him.

1.5 Parts Oats - (Olive Hill's recommendations)
1 Part 48 Soybean Meal - (Olive Hill's recommendations)
.5 Part Corn - (Olive Hill's recommendations)
.5 Sunflower Seeds
.5 Protein Pellets
1.5 part Alfalfa Pellets

He said that 1 ton (2000lbs) of this would be:

$480.00 Bulk (not sacked in 50lb bags)
$518.00 Bulk (if they sack it in 50lb bags)

I had someone do the math and they said that would be $12.00 per 50lb bag. That is still too high. If I pay that for bulk, I may as well continue to buy feed at TSC. He said, of course, the different ingredients determine the price and protein. He said that this recipe brings the protein up to 21% with 5% fat. I am wanting a higher protein for them. Flockraiser is 20% and I don't want to go any lower than that. He said that the soybean meal will make it "dusty". He said that he could add vegetable oil so that it wouldn't be so "dusty". VEGETABLE OIL???????

Is that good or bad?

What makes this recipe so expensive? What do I need to do to adjust it and still not go below 20% protein?

My goal is for my chicken's to look and be VERY healthy (feathers, comb, etc) and I want to increase their egg production being as though I sell eggs. And to be meaty. Does that makes sense?

 

[Olive Hill]

Ok, just real quick, lets talk about protein for a minute. There are a few things at the most basic level that you should know if you want to tweak/create recipes. (There is a plethora of additional information you can also take in about the topic, but at the very most basic level... this stuff will help)

- Every feedstuff has it's own set nutritional profile, including a protein profile.
- All proteins are not created equal
--- Proteins are made up of amino acids, some of these are more important than others and each living creature needs a unique balance of these to meet its needs
- Every feedstuff has it's strengths and weaknesses when it comes to providing protein (amino acids), they may be heavy on one but light on another
- No source of protein is perfect
- Not all protein is digestible, only a percentage of the protein the birds consume will be used by their body - this is true of all living creatures. This is why we overshoot their needs.
- If you're trying to formulate a feed to X% crude protein, if you add a feedstuff to the recipe that is less than X% CP it will reduce the overall protein of your recipe. The more of that feedstuff you add, the more it reduces the overall CP of the recipe. By that same token if you add a feedstuff that is greater than X% it will bring the overall CP up. The more you add the more it brings the CP up.
- More, more, more is not always better, better, better. Even if more digestible protein -- even with a perfect overall profile -- is offered the birds will only utilize so much of it before it is kicked out of the body as waste and/or creates health problems for the birds. For a growth/maintenance in a mixed flock 20-22% is a good range to be in, imo. I wouldn't suggest going over 24%, there you can run into problems and because protein tends to be the expensive portion of the diet you're also wasting money.
- Common feed profiles can be found online. Oats average 11-12% Corn is generally accepted at 9% though these days it's commonly tested out lower. Soybean Meal averages in the 48% range (note: soybean meal is high in lysine, an important amino acid for muscle development) And so on and so forth.


In order to calculate your overall protein content (or the content of any one specific component of the feed) you would use the following formula:

[ (Parts of X in recipe * Percent CP in X) + (Parts of Y in recipe * Percent CP in Y) + (Parts Z in recipe * Percent CP in Z) ] / Total Number of Parts in Recipe = Overall CP

So if you had recipe:

1.5 Parts X
1 Part Y
.5 Part Z

X = 10% CP
Y = 50% CP
Z = 6% CP

The math would look like this:

[ (1.5 * 10) + (1 * 50) + (.5 * 6) ] / (1.5 + 1 + .5)
[ 15 + 50 + 3 ] / 3
68 / 3
22.67% CP

There is also a square method of coming up with a formula to meet your goal, I use the above out of habit -- how I've always done it, and I use an excel spreadsheet to play around with numbers -- but if you google Feed Ration Square, or similar, I'm sure it'll come up and you can read how to use it. And then you can decide which you like better.

Okay now to answer some questions/address some things in your post.

On the price, I can't really help you as I just don't know what the going rate for grain is in your area. I would imagine it's going to be more than I pay here where we grow a lot of this stuff year in and year out, but I don't know how much more to expect. That said, the ingredients you added do tend to be more expensive ingredients. Not to say they shouldn't or couldn't be used, but if price is a main concern, then you may decide to leave them out for that reason. Another thought on price is to downsize your flock, if you're raising them just for you not for sale I imagine you could get by on fewer birds. That's your decision of course.

On the vegetable oil, I would not add it to a bulk purchase. Even as fast as you are going to use it. Vegetable oil can go rancid quickly. It's not something I feel comfortable having premixed into feed. If it's of any consolation, while the feed is "dustier" than say pellets or crumbles I do not find the dust to be a problem worth fretting about. Our feed station is outside, feeders are hung to reduce waste, we don't have any problems.

Your goals -- visibly healthy, meaty, productive birds -- are realistic and attainable. That said, keep in mind that two of the three goals you have are tied not only to environmental factors but genetic as well. While the diet certainly affects a bird's ability to produce on both the counts of meat and eggs, some birds even with a great diet and environment will never be superb layers and/or superb meat prospects. Even fewer birds can do both really well no matter what you feed them. So assessing the ability of your flock to perform even under ideal conditions and adjusting either your ideals to their ability or the flock to your ideals via culling, selective breeding and purchasing, etc. may be in order.

With that in mind, it is of course helpful to provide a good diet in order to help all your birds meet their "personal best" performance. The recipe you used above doesn't contain a nutritional balancer, so you'll want to keep that in mind next time and try to cover that base. Also ask about the balancer they use and find out if you'll need to add calcium for your layers, many balancers are designed for meat birds and so will not contain sufficient calcium for producing hens and breeders.

Hopefully I remembered to touch on everything, sorry for the novel.

 

[kuntrygirl]

Quote:
Boy, I absolutely love reading your post. I love novels!

I understand everything you said (except the dividing and adding and taking away and carrying the 1 and counting alphabet - A B C X Y Z)

.

When the guy mentioned "dusty", I was thinking that it was more of a "sandy", "dirt" consistency similar to meal. I was concerned that they would have to eat tons of it before getting "full". I understand about the balancer. I will ask him about that.

As far as the price, it is and is not a concern. I pay $15.00 for a 50lb bag of flockraiser (20% protein) and $13.00 for a 50lb bag of lay pellets. I guess in my mind I'm assuming that if you buy in bulk, the price is cheaper. I was hoping that at the end of this lab experiment, I could in all honestly pay about $8.00 - $9.00 per 50lb bag divided into this 2000 lbs bulk feed.

I had no idea it would be this difficult as far as getting my flock on the right path to happy & healthy.

P.S. Can you come to the feed mill with me?

Thanks for the information.

 

[Olive Hill]

If there is more than one mill within driving distance call a couple and get prices as well. There are two the same distance from me, just in opposite directions, and one is considerably cheaper than the other.

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Hmmm... are you near New Orleans? Do you know of all the good little local places, not touristy ones, to go to? Restaurants? Shops? Crazy VooDoo ladies? I could be persuaded if so.

 

[kuntrygirl]

Just wanted everyone to know that I increased the feeding from 5 gallons of feed to 8 gallons of feed. Guess what????? There was feed left over. I couldn't believe it. So, everyone was right in saying that I wasn't feeding enough and to increase their feeding. Thank you very much for you honest input. That is always needed.

I fed them 8 gallons at 6AM that very next morning after posting on BYC and when I arrived home after work at 5pm, I noticed that there was plenty of feed in the feeders. I put 8 gallons of feed down again for the 6PM feeding and guess what? Only about 12 chickens came over to eat. Everyone else looked at the feed and turned their heads and continued to free range and look for bugs and eat grass. They were no more interested in that feed than the man on the moon, so I guess they were full of feed and just wanted to free range. So my total amount of daily feeding has increased from 10 gallons of feed to 16 GALLONS of feed EVERY DAY!. There has been feed left over every day since. Oh yea and guess what else. The first night that I increased their feed, EVERY ANIMAL turned in early for the night. EVERY CHICKEN went into their own stall, shed, chicken house and jumped on their roost and went to bed. That has NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER EVER happened before. This was the VERY first night that I didn't have to go and look for any chickens or turkeys and put up on the roost. I was totally shocked. I couldn't believe it. And ever since the feed has increased, they are turning in early to roost and no one is hiding out. They are going in on their own. I guess they are so full, all they want to do is to go to sleep. Amazing!!!


Thanks to Olive Hill, the new chicken feed recipe is in the making. I"m hoping to have new feed in a week or 2. I will let you all know what the price will be for 2000 lbs of feed.