Hybrid Pheasants

[Resolution]

I don't know where to start here- so many queries seem to be not gaining traction.

I think I may have to start a few new threads that deal with each of these respective issues separately.

 

[oleduke]

I am not trying to ruffle any feathers here, pun intended, but I am curious what the outcome of a female Yellow Golden and a Male Red Golden would be. I do not hybridize or cross any of my birds. In fact, I sold all of my Yellow Golden stock to a friend who has been breeding for 15 years. I have found that the Yellow Golden Males & Females are very aggressive towards Red Golden's; & even more so when space is limited. I would put all females together and all males together, in new pens when I didn't want to breed or it wasn't breeding season. That isn't a good idea moving them so much. I bred the highest quality Red males with the highest quality Red females I had. I want a beautiful bird, plus I want to keep PURE lines.

My experience with Yellow's is only 3 or 4 years and my experience overall is novice compared to Tony and others. I have found myself in a predicament though. I ran across a yellow female and what appears to be red youngsters. I bought them at a fair so, if nothing else, it will keep them out of the hands of people who don't know the difference between them as they were labeled Red Golden Pheasants'.

I only have 3 unrelated Red females atm & no males. I have spoken with Tony in the past on here about purchasing a pair but he disappeared for a while & I am glad he is back. Here is but one of my problems:
1) One of the young males is hopping around on one leg. It isn't broke as I have looked him over and he can move it but it hurts him. There is no visible damage to the leg & nothing feels out of whack. I am guessing it was the tiny cage he was in, or another one of the males fighting him. Is there anything I can do for him? I have been watching him closely.
2) What signs can I look for to tell if they are hybrids? So far, 3 of 5 males appear (at the current age 5 mos I'm guessing) to be Red's. I read somewhere the tail barring and spots will be different if another bloodline is introduced. Also, if there is red in his crest, when colored in, that is a sign of Amherst blood.
3) I was disgusted with the couple that had them but I bought all 6 of them and if need be I will cull them. I have looked for photos of Yellow x Red but almost always come up with Red x Amherst.
4) Now I have what appears to be a pure (only guessing) yellow hen, at least she looks like the one's I had in the past, but my friend will not even chance it. He said cull them all and find you a male for your Red hens. I don't want to pollute the stream any further so I won't let them leave me.

I really do like the birds, but I will not breed them. I would also like to help the injured one, but don't know what to do for it atm, & yes I admit it; I want to see what they look like colored in. Can anyone provide photos of yellow x red and offer any advice for the above statements/questions?

And Yes I am still looking for the best Red Golden Male I can find. Any help, advice, links, or otherwise will be greatly appreciated.

David aka oleduke

 

[goatbless]

I find this discussion fascinating and have learned a lot reading this and another thread I saw about the subject of pheasant hybrids. While I understand the desire of some breeders to focus on preserving a pureblood line, I do not see what all the fuss is for others who have other goals in their breeding programs. Yes, unscrupulous folks are a problem- but I feel that is true even when dealing with pedigreed animals because you are still going on that person's word that the parents of said animal are who they say they are. Short of DNA testing it is still a judgement call when finding breeders. This has led me to take the view that an animal, pure or mixed, is only as good as the skill and eye for quality that the breeder posesses(for example I have seen many great lines of livestock ruined by a breeder who didn't know how to cull properly- or would not because they wanted the top dollar for every animal produced).
While I strongly agree that pure pheasant are valuable and should be preserved, just as I support preserving rare and heritage breeds of livestock, I do not think that it is reasonable to assume that domestication will not eventually occur in pheasant just as it has in turkeys, guinea fowl, and chickens over time. Crossing has been said in a recent article I read to sometimes create a new subspecies that is more suited to an environment than their parent species(and consequently less suited to the environment of their parent species-which limits backcrossing), which could be an interesting piece in the puzzle of why crossing animals has apparently been so helpful and/or common in domestication of many types of animals. This is simply speculation on my part, but I thought it may be worth mentioning as an observation, since living with mankind is essentially a new ecological niche for them to fill.
I would be very interested if anyone could shed some light on when an animal would be decided to be officially domesticated, such as when a well-documented population of amherst-golden crosses is established with consistent traits whether it would be a new "breed" of domestic pheasant- or whether a common pheasant may even already be headed in that direction?? I never knew that quail had so many varieties until I came to this website, when did quail become officially domestic and not simply commercially grown exotics? I am not trying to upset anyone with these questions, but I really wanted to ask them because I am very curious about the creation of domestic breeds and have seen in other breeds of fowl extensive outcrossing with sometimes fantastic results. Do you think that some people may not be actually just breeding willy nilly but perhaps could be striving towards domestic pheasant?

 

[Resolution]

Is it possible you have a niacin deficiency in your Chrysolophus pheasants? Is it possible someone grasped the bird with both legs in one hand- that is hock to hock?
Is it possible both may have occurred?

There isn't much you can do for the leg itself but you can affect the enclosure in such a matter that it has a great deal more horizontal space - space in which dried leaves can be added? Hammocks along the walls basically- where a few pieces of firewood can be situated in such a manner that the bird can support itself in deep leaf litter -all its enclosure mates will join him as this is the natural habit of species of this genus- they live in rabbit briars -overgrown bramble and rose thickets -trails hewn by rabbits and such- meandering through them- the birds move up and down adjacent creek bed- slender as a rail passing through vertical reeds and bulrushes- willows stands and bamboo forest.
In the autumn they rest within the leaf litter itself as they migrate down the mountain sides.

Here is why Amherst's and Goldens make such poor mating partners- in nature, the Amherst's aka Shan Pheasant, inhabit an alpine ecosystem on steeper more exposed mountain slopes at considerably higher elevations than the golden- both prefer very similar warrens -but the golden is happy in a seasonally arid environment -one replete with bamboo thickets scrubby bitter brush willows-- the Amherst's is happier amongst the aspens birches and ferns.

The Golden moves in larger aggregations. The Amherst's is only interesting in flocking together at the height of winter when the rabbit warrens become mustelide stalked.

At any rate, build an enclosure where the physically challenged bird is at no serious disadvantage and keep the group in a manageable flock.
That would be my suggestion.

Also, it may be prudent to supplement the diets of all growing and post reproduction season birds with superior nutrition for the rest of the fall into the beginning of the winter.


Turmeric in the diet may bring some chronic inter tissue swelling down- enough that the bird can it least bend the knee or use those damages ligaments some part of the day- by leaning into the firewood hidden in leaf litter- in rain protected hammocks on the perimeters of the Chrysolophus enclosure-

Anyway- come migration time, the goldens are fluttering from mountain slope to mountain slope like covies of of valley quail. Their anti-predatory strategy is to fly in numbers hovering as they go - ready to dive bomb head first back into the briar creeks or bamboos- distracting those dreaded birds of prey for one last moment from the females and young.

The Amherst's on the other hand is flying in singly or small family parties with relatively little overlap between other families even those socially related to one another.

The Amherst's male is not against flying during dawn and dusk- or during a very bright full moon night. The golden prefers the heat of the day in all the din of 12 oclock when even the forest raptors are loathe to be seen. Birds of prey become targets of crows and other mobbing birds when they venture too far out into the light.
the Amherst's flies when owls are loathe to make themselves too visible them selves for similar reasons.

Each has a different strategy for evading a bird of prey while on the wing. Very similar certainly but different for reasons of hard wired adaptation to very similar but generally different guilds of predators that occupy the different ecosystems and altitudes preferred by each respective if highly similar Chrysolophus species.

the Amherst's knows that its best bet of survival is to fly into white barked stands of alpine trees, vanishing with camouflage.

The Golden is generally hugging the slope to such an extent its just as likely to flutter run -slowing its descent- flocks tucking into cover as simultaneously as their explosion upwards.

The Amherst's is flying more vertically, and as it lives in taller forest, it tends to fly a good deal higher. But like their cousin the cheer pheasant, both species are fond of closing their wings and dive bombing with tails spread out into the densest cover at the bases of their foraging/migrational slopes. Their specialized ruffs enable the males to make the most dramatic sails as they are afforded a larger amount of protection against thorns than the females- who simply behave more like wrens and thrushes when it comes to moving through the briar/ bamboo forest.

The males attract attention from the birds of prey by flying further and harder while the females and young stop their dives to climb nimbly, squirrel like through the underbrush.

When the two are hybridized, the escape strategies are conflated resulting in the predation of the conflicted hybrid.

When it comes to success of hybrid swarms as we see in places in Hawaii and California, the hybrids are surviving better than either parent while living in a completely free ranging environment as peafowl, or bantams for that matter, the hybrids will tend to fare better in places where the habitat is marginal for either species and less than ideal for the predators of the pheasants- for example in Christmas tree plantations; in big sage brush stands thick with bitter brush and or willow along ditches and brooks.
Here the eclipse tends to thrive and soon each farm or hedge forest has its own subrace of red crowned eclipse or yellow crowned white ruffed eclipse.

Nevertheless, if the captive population were to one day be used to reintroduce the species- any specimens with foreign blood would most likely never be used in the native habitat or in habitat that is very similar to that which the respective species prefers in nature.

 

[oleduke]

Thanks for the reply Resolution.

The injured pheasant's leg is getting much better. I have handled these birds quite a bit since I acquired them. While not really fond of that, it has proven very helpful with the injured guy. I was checking his leg one evening and sort of massaging it at the same time; I didn't find anything out of the ordinary & he seemed to like that so I continued for a time. He is now placing it gently on the ground and moving around a lot more. I did that for a week or more but not everyday (actually at night so he wouldn't hurt himself trying to flee when I picked him up).

The birds are starting to color in some and it is now clear that they are of different ages altogether. It has been really rainy here lately, but I will post some pics of them soon. It seems like the only time they stand still is when they are perched so I take pics at night mostly. I am feeding the birds a very high protein diet; probably 30% or more. I have always given my pheasants fallen leaves, but what is in them that makes the pheasants like to eat them? My ring necks devour them as if it were candy to a child.

Want to do something that is totally cool & weird at the same time? The next time you have to handle your pheasants, obviously hold them so they won't hurt themselves, turn them upside down and before you count to 20 they will close their eyes as if asleep. Don't hurt your birds, but I was "cradling" the injured pheasant while checking his leg when I noticed he would appear asleep. That made want to pet the others so I did. Sure enough, everyone that I "cradled" on my forearm closed their eyes. Maybe this is because I did it at night, no harm came to them, and I didn't do it just for fun. It is just something strange I had never noticed before but interesting, well to me anyway.

(note as soon as you turn them right side up - they are WIDE awake so be careful if you do this)

...ok maybe it was fun but I don't do it all the time!

 

[PupuMcgoo]

i like your birds Randy. I dont no why evryone is so upset with them i like to raise birds like that. you think i can bred my koklas with one of my ringnecks or my chicken what would that look like? I got my koklas from an old feller got it in with my pigeons to keep him warm and it keeps gettin sick i thought it might be strong like my chicken if it wer crossd.

by the way Randy like your sheep to

thanks sorry about my typing and spelling new to computers

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

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[Omniskies]

I sort of have a problem with the idea that if people produce hybrid pheasants they will wipe out whole species. Here's why:

1. If someone is interested in pheasants solely because they think it'd be really awesome to find out what a ReevesxGolden/Ringneck cross would come up with, I severely doubt that same individual is seriously interested in raising regular pheasants. And if he is, he's already doing his part for preservation, but also playing around with things on the side. You should be thanking this individual for being interested in pheasants at all, since very few people decide to go out and raise these guys.

2. Anyone who buys a hybrid/crossbreed as a purebreed is, himself, at fault. Like the individual who said that they knew they weren't buying a pure bird because it had a white cape - they did their research and knew in advance what was and was not pure. People who buy the wrong thing are people who didn't do enough research to begin with. I understand this isn't the case _all_ of the time - but often enough. At which point those people will either learn from their mistakes or they won't. Again, be thankful that they are interested in pheasants in the first place.

3. You're seriously so worried about gentic diversity that you get upset when someone makes a cross? And when when someone makes a cross, then builds it back up, what they have done is added more genetic diversity after those four years than someone who didn't. Why? Because they have introduced completely new blood into their flock that your flock doesn't have.

You don't get more people excited about raising pheasants when you set rules and get huffy when they try to play with their birds. If I want to cross my birds with goats, let me. Once I get bored with trying to make it work, I may decide to get serious about raising purebred pheasants and add to the genepool. Or I won't - at which point I never would have to begin with because it was a passing fancy.

This isn't directed to any one person. Just a huff I wanted to point out

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

yes you make some good points there, but have some flaws there too.
It is not always the fault of the buyer, Many new buyers do not know exactly what a 100% pure bird looks like, To be honest, it take a very well trained eye to distinguish certain species hens apart. That only comes with years of dedication to the species in question.
Other species can be crossed, and look right when you buy them, but 2 years down when they color up, you find out you have a cross.
Others yet, can be crossed and truly impure, but look correct. Red golds with amherts blood for example

These are all things a responsible breeder should keep track off and be able to give to the customer with 100% certainty.

Also as for the introduction of "new blood" as you called it, these dont work that way, once out crossed, they will never again be pure in the true sense of the word, they arent like chickens , where you can just get them close and call them good. They are either truly pure, or they are a hybrid, so fixing the blood that way is not the correct way.
The correct way with pheasant is to fine "new " blood from others pure stock, at this point in time, preferably imported stock, as most of the US lines are already watered down to the point of nearly loosing the species in it's true natural form all together.
Case again, the golden, aside from imported lines, most all now have some degree of amherst blood in them in their lineage somewhere. What does this do, well after decades of improper breeding, people tend to forget what a bird is supposed to look like in it's natural form, thus, the mules start becoming what people refer to as the true breed.

No you are right, we need to be grateful for everyone who is interested in "breeding" pheasants. And those with spare parts around always seem to cross breed, just to see what happens. I have no problem with it if this is where it ends. The problem arises, when a breeder starts to sell his stock of cross breeds to people because they think it looks cool, which yes, most do.
Now they breed these mutts, and give there buddy some, who doesnt have a clue what they are, again, just look cool.
Then they sell some or give them away etc etc etc.

The spread of crossed birds is where the problem comes from, not necessarily the creation of them, though without that, there would be no spread right.

Some are intentional, then again, like I said, some hens look very similar, so they can be accidental on new bies, parts, but again, a good breeder should have show and explained the difference to the new buyer so they would know better.

In the long run, most of these species of birds are endangered or at very least threatened in the wild. It is our responsibility as aviculturist to assure these captive birds stay as pure as humanly possible. In short, we all should be breeding with preservation of the species in mind, not a , well I bought it, no ones gonna tell me what I can or cant do with it attitude.

In those Case, people who intentionally want to have them just to "make" a new color or breed, no honestly we dont really need those keeping them, period.
If that's what you want your goals in pheasant keeping to be, then please, just dont get pheasants, go buy yourself a chicken or turkey and play God with them.

We've pretty much lost most all the truly pure muticus peafowl species here in the U.S already from the spaulding craze, there are a handful left, but not many, yet look how many are selling"java" on the internet, most dont even know what to really call them, that's what I was referring to with spreading down the line thing. They think they have pure javas, or any of the 3 species for that matter, but honestly, they have no clue what to look for to tell the difference, some call the emerald javas, LOL

Well, like you, I wasnt pointing fingers, just felt I put my counter point in there to maybe explain a little why true pheasant keepers get a little upset everyday when they get on-line and see stuff like this.
Again we should all be breeding with species conservation in mind with these, not a, lets see what happens when I do this.....
But if you do, and it's your call to do so, but please let the hybrids die with you, dont spread them and keep them away from breeding pures. Without some restraint, we are going to loose our captive populations, if isnt too late on some already

 

[JJMR794]

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AMEN