I am confused about medicated starter.

[galanie]

I'm sure there are livestock with an overabundance of nasties in them if they were raised in filth, already had a bad infestation, etc. In short, it's overall practice of which ACV is a part, not a magic bullet.

Beekissed said, in part:

What can cause an overgrowth of cocci? Antibiotic usage, concentrated cocci bacteria in the stools, soils, and bedding of the chicken housing, a decrease in good bacteria and cultures in the bowels and environment , prolonged diarrhea, etc.

 

[shadetech]

I wouldn't bet the farm on it, I have seen on more that one occasion where livestock had a overabundance of Cocci in there body even after being on ACV.
IMO, ACV and DE are much the same in that people claim they 'cure' a lot but in reality they 'cure' very little.
I think I'll stick with products that have the facts to back them up.

I wouldn't say ACV doesn't have side effects because ACV does in fact have some side effects, in humans and some animals there have been cases where the ACV has damaged the enamel of teeth, had effects on the throat lining, affected how some prescription drugs work in the body, ACV lowers potassium, etc.


Chris

Your point is taken Chris. Most all things have side effects.

I once drowned at the age of 4, so I guess one could say that water has side effects on humans as well as some animals. The air we breath has been contaminated by the incident in Japan. There are things we have little or no control over. To those things I give to higher powers to worry about.

But, to have something so simple that used with proper management, such as ACV, to aid the health of my herd of tiny dinosaurs.......

maybe I'll give them Potassium supplements if I find they need them.

henry

 

[galanie]

But Chris09, DE does have facts to back it up. The facts are this: It doesn't do any good when fed to chickens and only minimally does any good as far as keeping mites, etc. off them.

 

[Chris09]

I'm sure there are livestock with an overabundance of nasties in them if they were raised in filth, already had a bad infestation, etc. In short, it's overall practice of which ACV is a part, not a magic bullet.

Beekissed said, in part:

What can cause an overgrowth of cocci? Antibiotic usage, concentrated cocci bacteria in the stools, soils, and bedding of the chicken housing, a decrease in good bacteria and cultures in the bowels and environment , prolonged diarrhea, etc.

Livestock can get Cocci even in the cleanest informants not just in 'filth'.
I treat Cocci with one of three med's, either Amprolium (Corid), Sulfadimethoxine (Di-Methox), or Sulfamethoxazol and Trimethoprim Oral Suspension all three work very well and do there job without fail[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chris[/FONT]

 

[Beekissed]

I wouldn't bet the farm on it, I have seen on more that one occasion where livestock had a overabundance of Cocci in there body even after being on ACV.
IMO, ACV and DE are much the same in that people claim they 'cure' a lot but in reality they 'cure' very little.
I think I'll stick with products that have the facts to back them up.

I wouldn't say ACV doesn't have side effects because ACV does in fact have some side effects, in humans and some animals there have been cases where the ACV has damaged the enamel of teeth, had effects on the throat lining, affected how some prescription drugs work in the body, ACV lowers potassium, etc.


Chris

ACV isn't a total fix nor is it a magic wand. If livestock have an overabundance of cocci in their body, they are being mismanaged in more ways than one and ACV isn't going to "fix" all the things wrong with a husbandry paradigm. ACV doesn't cure anything...it is a preventative, not a cure. People looking for cures have already went past the stage of preventative and are now into fixing their mistakes. ACV won't fix your mistakes, for sure.

What ACV CAN do is help you start out properly and it can get you back to a good point, but only if you combine it with healthy animal husbandry practices....if one is overstocking, has a feedlot environment for their animals, feeding primarily grains to ruminants instead of giving them a grass diet, keeping animals in crowded, poorly ventilated areas, wet bedding or swabbing down the whole environment with antimicrobial disinfectants to correct all their myriad mistakes....then ACV will be like throwing a cup of water on a forest fire.

What I see from people who poo-poo preventative, natural care of animals is a basic insecurity of their husbandry skills, so they depend on only scientifically proven "fixes" for their husbandry needs. Medicated feeds, antibiotics as the first resort, etc.

I don't really care for the arrogance and rudeness of Joel Salatin, but his basic husbandry advice is spot on...if you are medicating livestock, you are using a crutch to keep your animals alive. Basic preventative husbandry is so much easier, cheaper, better for your animals and, in the long run, will keep you and your family healthier as you are the ones eating the product and working in that environment.

The "side effects" listed of ACV happen when people are ingesting large amounts of straight vinegar...and no one is advocating that here. And I really don't believe one could MAKE an animal drink large amounts of straight vinegar, so the claims here are a little slanted for effect.

Everyone is free to manage their animals as they will but no one here is saying nor has ever said that ACV is a cure for anything..anything at all.

 

[galanie]

Now I see the difference. You're talking Livestock and we're talking chickens. Anyway making sure there's enough ACV to do a cow some good would sure use up a truckload of the stuff! And if it didn't do you any good, then a waste, at that.

I was under the impression though that ACV was only a part of defense against cocci. That cultured milk products prevent it too.

I thought we were talking about cocci prevention in chickens, not curing an already infected steer or goat.

Edit. Sorry Bee, we were obviously posting at the same time.

 

[Beekissed]

Livestock can get Cocci even in the cleanest informants not just in 'filth'.
I treat Cocci with one of three med's, either Amprolium (Corid), Sulfadimethoxine (Di-Methox), or Sulfamethoxazol and Trimethoprim Oral Suspension all three work very well and do there job without fail[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chris[/FONT]

No one mentioned filth....just cocci overgrowth in the environment. One can't "clean" the soil that has a heavy load of cocci but one can create an environment for the growth of the bacteria that inhibit cocci growth. If you take the time to read the posts of folks who use meds to "cure" this problem, you will often find they have to use them again...and again. They didn't "cure" anything, merely got their animals medicated down to acceptable levels internally. Soon enough they will get an overgrowth once again because they are subject to the same husbandry practices and are in the same environment.

Those "cleanest environments" of which you speak? Those that have been disinfected to death? Those are the very ones that contribute to an overgrowth of this kind of bacterial loads...in the broiler houses they call that "biosecurity" measures. I call it death and I see it's effects every time they haul out the hundreds of dead birds each day.

 

[ChickenJerk]

Those referring to coccidia as bacteria causes a loss of all credibility to me on this subject.

It is a protozoa.

 

[Beekissed]

Those referring to coccidia as bacteria causes a loss of all credibility to me on this subject.

It is a protozoa.

I'm a nurse and I'm well aware of the difference. I've given the antiprotozoal meds to combat intestinal "bacteria" that is actually an overgrowth of protozoa. But...who cares? The average lay person knows the word bacteria but not so much protozoa. If you would like, we can use the proper terminology and confound the masses.

From Wiki:

"Protozoa" is considered an outdated classification in more formal contexts. However, the term is still used in children's education.[2]

Another source:

Protozoa: A single-cell organism that can only divide within a host organism.


Bacteria: Single-celled microorganisms which can exist either as independent (free-living) organisms or as parasites (dependent upon another organism for life).

Let's get even more technical and say that anyone who uses the word antibiotics when referring to the meds that kill cocci have lost their credibility as well, shall we? The more definitive term would be antimicrobial.

 

[Chris09]

But Chris09, DE does have facts to back it up. The facts are this: It doesn't do any good when fed to chickens and only minimally does any good as far as keeping mites, etc. off them.

That is 110% correct.

Chris