I am so confused! Genetics calculator is wrong?

mama24

Songster
9 Years
Mar 7, 2010
1,661
20
163
GSO, NC
My son's favorite hen, a sultan bantam, got killed by a raccoon mid-day 3 weeks ago. I had a broody Pyncheon, so I threw all 6 of the Sultan's eggs we had in the fridge under her along with 2 of her own eggs. My 2 roosters are what I thought was either a bantam black Minorca or a bantam black Andalusian, and a Pyncheon cockerel. Anyway, my Pyncheon pullet quit her nest last week, but I thankfully had the incubator up and running (now I'm worried about all the eggs that were due next week!!!) I hatched 2 Pyncheon eggs and 5 Sultan, 1 sultan pipped but did not zip, and died. Of the 4 sultan cross chicks, 3 are all yellow down, as expected, but one is all yellow with black spots! Could the down just be an anomaly, and the chick will end up with all white feathers, or is it likely to be white with black spots?

The 2 Pyncheon chicks look very different. 1 is a dark brown chipmunk striped with slate legs, so I know for sure the Minorca must be the dad as my Pyncheons' legs are off color, white, so slate legs are only possible if the Minorca was the dad. The other is a pale version of the chipmunk stripes. According to the genetics calculator, a black rooster over a Mille Fleur hen should give you all black chicks. So I guess my little black roo is hiding some other color??? Can anyone explain what could have happened here? I was hoping to get at least one pure Pyncheon, but I am pretty sure my Pyncheon chick was a mix of buff and caramel color with a little gray when she was a baby, but blotchy, not chipmunky, and that's what I see when I google Pyncheon chick pics, so I think maybe the black roo is the dad for all of the babies.
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Sorry, can't really see the black spots in this pic.
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saladin

Songster
10 Years
Mar 30, 2009
2,831
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Down is not necessarily an indicator of color.

For example, I raise White Cubalayas which like BBR Cubalayas have white down. However, I crossed Blue into my Whites to cleasn up the brassiness. Anyhow, now my White Cubalaya chicks come 'smutty' colored (like you took the chick and rolled it in ashes: very dirty looking) these make nice clean Whites when mature with no brassiness.


When you are crossing breeds it is very difficult to guess the color the birds will be.

Suggestion: if you want Pyncheons then you need to pen them together. Since you've had the hen where other cocks can get to her, it is best to pen her by herself for 3 weeks and let her lay. Throw the eggs away. This is called 'cleaning her out.' Then put in the Pyncheon cock. Again, throw all the eggs she lays for the first 10 days away. After that they should be his.

This is why we pen out hens at least one month before we intend to start collecting eggs for hatching.
 

mama24

Songster
9 Years
Mar 7, 2010
1,661
20
163
GSO, NC
Quote:
Thanks. I know I need to separate them for breeding, I already have the pens built, just need to find my fence clips top finish the fencing. I wasn't planning on breeding until spring, I only hatched b/c my son's favorite hen got killed. I'm disappointed neither of the Pyncheon chicks seem to be pure, especially since "Elvis and Priscilla" hang out together all day long, but I'm not really surprised since the Minorca is dominant. Just disappointed.
 

tadkerson

Crowing
Jul 19, 2008
1,984
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Missouri
Quote:
Genetics 101

The yellow chick with the black spots should be white as an adult. The black males or sultan could be the father of the white chicks. It sounds like your white sultans carry dominant white. A white/yellowish chick with black spots is typical of dominant white heterozygotes. Most likely a black rooster fathered the chick with the black spots.

Pyncheon should be a mille fleur phenotype which can be produced on the wild type, brown or wheaten alleles. The chipmunk chick appears to be wild type at the E locus. Pyncheon should have green legs which is due to sex linked dermal melanin and the yellow skin gene. If your pyncheon carry wheaten at the E locus then the legs will look yellowish. The wheaten allele will dilute the black pigment in the legs due to the dermal melanin gene- you get yellowish shanks and feet and not green shanks. The hens will have whitish or off color looking shanks if they are laying eggs. I would say the Pyncheon hens mated with the pyncheon male. The light colored chipmunk chiick appears to be a wheaten heterozygote.

It is possible that a black bird crossed with the pyncheon produced a wild type chick but when they feather out they will be a dark color. The probabilities favor black chicks from a black parent.

The chipmunk chick has dark legs because it does not carry wheaten. The lighter colored chipmunk chick should be a wheaten/wild type heterozygote-that is why the legs are a lighter color.

Pyncheon are not a well established breed so I would say they can vary at the E locus and not carry the full complement of genes needed for a good mille fluer phenotype. D'Uccle have an established mille fleur genotype so the chicks are dark with the brown faces. The pyncheon chicks I have seen are all over the map in their down color.

The calculator deals with crosses that have a designated genotype and the highest probability of an outcome. The calculator can not make a prediction based upon birds that have an anomaly in the genotype. That is when a person with a knowledge base or a well written book on genetics can come up with the answers.

Down color is very important when you are breeding for a specific phenotype (adult color). If you can consistently produce chicks of a specific down color and the adults from the down color are consistent- you know that you have the genetics correct.

Tim
 
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mama24

Songster
9 Years
Mar 7, 2010
1,661
20
163
GSO, NC
By off color, I meant that they have white legs, not the required for breed type willow legs, not that they have off-white legs. Finding a Pyncheon that actually has willow legs is really really hard. Also, what do you mean by not well established? Pyncheons are one of the oldest breeds we have in the US.
 
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tadkerson

Crowing
Jul 19, 2008
1,984
199
264
Missouri
Quote:
To the best of my knowledge, pyncheon are not an APA recognized breed. The fact that you can not find a pyncheon with willow legs indicates there are only a few serious breeders. There are not that many pyncheon around. I had correspondence with an individual on how to make pyncheon from established breeds. He could not find anyone that had true pyncheons for sale.

A person can find birds with the correct phenotype if the breed is well established. You should be able to go to a show and see pyncheons if they are well established.

Tim
 

saladin

Songster
10 Years
Mar 30, 2009
2,831
157
221
the South
Quote:
Saladin,

You have introduced the extended black allele into your birds. I am assuming the birds are recessive white- the smutty color is characteristic of extended black chicks that are recessive white.

Tim

Yes, Cubalaya White is recessive. Sure I know what I did. lol. I was simply giving an example so that the original poster could see how she might 'change' down color.
 

mama24

Songster
9 Years
Mar 7, 2010
1,661
20
163
GSO, NC
There should be "like" buttons for posts here like on Facebook. lol. Thanks for your help and explanations. So what I'm getting is that the black spots on the white chick down don't mean anything, the chick will still be white. And the dark chipmunky chick will be black when he/she grows up, the lighter one will either be black or Mille Fleur, depending on whether the dad was the black or the mille fleur cock? Do I have that right? I am really surprised the down color doesn't mean anything. lol
 

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