I wish I knew.. DO YOU KNOW?

[microchick]

Thank you all for coming forward and posting this thread.

Yep, I've got it in my flock. This time last year I had 34 standard sized birds, 4 bantams. At this time I have 20 of the original 34 standards left and three of the original bantams. 4 roosters were rehomed before I realized I had Marek's in my flock and have since died from a fox attack. So my total losses from my original flock of 38 birds to Marek's is 11 birds. I suspect that my birds have fallen victim to a really nasty strain of the disease.

I've lost other birds to it also. My bantams have been highly prolific but I have lost my first birds to classic Marek's paralysis over the summer months and young birds who did not survive the initial infection. I'm roughly guessing that I've lost close to 19 birds, the last being a Welly/BO cross that had to be put down a week ago due to rapid weight loss and failing health. Tonight, DH and I treated one of 4 birds that has obvious ocular Marek's. Her eye is flared and looks horrible. She is a very sweet girl who talks to us the whole time we are working with her. As she is loosing weight in spite of eating well, I'm doubting if she will survive the winter.

In my flock I am finding that the most susceptible are my Buff Orpingtons. I have lost one Welsummer Rooster, and one Welsummer hen so far but the biggest losses have come from my BO's. Especially cockerels. I read somewhere that BO's are one of the more susceptible breeds of birds. BUT. There is a bright spot. My most resistant birds have been a group of Buff Orpington hens who will be 3 in February and showing no sign of the disease. I can go out in my flock and pick up three BO hens. One will have a prominent keel bone and two will be fat and sassy. Those hens who are fat and sassy are worth their weight in chicken feed to me. Roosters are dropping like flies, but those select hens are going strong.

I only have myself to blame in that I did not buy vaccinated birds but opted to start with birds from an NPIP breeder who bred for resistance. I couldn't have forseen that our farm is a virtual cesspool of Marek's viruses brought in either by wild birds or already existant in the soil. Had I suspected, I would have bought vaccinated birds or settled for ducks. Like others have stated. Good bio-security hasn't been worth the trouble.

I hate to say that it makes me feel better hearing that the disease is everywhere. It doesn't really. My birds are pets and I hate either watching them die, helpless to do anything to help them or having to put them down so they don't suffer. But I do love having the little boogers around so my plan is to phase out the standard birds I have even though I am beginning to see some resistance in my surviving BO hens. I'm hoping to start seeing resistance in my bantams and next year I am hoping to introduce vaccinated Egyptian Fayoumis into my flock.I doubt if I will vaccinate chicks I hatch from them but at some point in time I hopefully will start to see true resistance in my flock in birds other than the Buff O's.

In the mean time I plan to enjoy the heck out of my survivors and continue to mourn for the ones I loose. And yes, @duluthralphie I'm going to take your advice and just going to say "He or She died from Marek's" when I loose one and stop beating myself over the head over what I can or could do differently.

As for the OP. Would I pay 18$ for the mentioned test? No. My birds showed symptoms that were atypical for classic Marek's but looking back, completely typical for Neuro-Marek's and Visceral-Marek's. When I noticed ocular changes I had my husband use his slit lamp to examine their eyes and he diagnosed what was wrong with one word. Herpes. Didn't need any necropsy or blood test after that.

I think we all have went through the phase where we sit in front of our computers, typing in symptoms we are noticing in our chickens and hoping that we don't see the word Marek's pop up but it eventually does. We still deny it to ourselves until it is glaring us in the face but we suspect the worst. We don't want to but we do.

So now I have a closed flock. My plan to sell off extra roosters and pullets is in the hopper. My run is full of roudy, noisy and totally adorable bantam roosters that will live out their lives on our farm. It's a good thing I like roosters. The good Lord sure has let my hens hatch out a boat load of them for me.

Good thing I'm not in this hobby for the money......

 

[duluthralphie]

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer so.. rinse, dunk, rinse, dunk, rinse - is that the routine? And is the rinse also the same temp?
Also, I did some research on the automatic vaccination "gun" today to perhaps expedite the process since the vaccine is only viable for an hour. I will call Jeffers Pet tomorrow and see what kind of advice they give. I think I will vaccinate for my own birds and those with vaccinated flocks, and let the others decide what they think is best; but require them to get their chicks post-haste so they don't have the opportunity to be exposed to anything here.
Or...cull the whole business...(in the wee hours of the morning, this is what I want to do...in the light of day, not so much).

My plan is to only sell started birds in the future. I raise birds to get showbirds.

I am such a push over, I end up selling my baby showbirds to people that want one of two.. or 20....then I end up showing against my own birds at the shows.

I sold off to incubators so I can no longer hatch 1,000 birds a month. I can now only hatch 400 a month.....if I bring the foamies out of retirement.


Also by selling started birds they wll be through that 16-20 week period and I will see how well my vaccinating has worked. AT 16-20 weeks I can also cull easier for defects. The birds I cull are still good birds and I am even showing against a bird I culled,...Thank you Holms!!!

Even if you sell your chicks based on what I have learned you are not spreading Marek's it is there already......

I think the weather makes a difference in the infection rate. We had a cooler rainier summer here. Ultra violet sunlight is a great disinfectant. BUT it cannot get through the wet muddy ground we had here this year.

I live on a sand dunes, normally it is dry and the sand gets turned over and the virus (I assume is killed in an hour in the hot sun).... This year it was so wet the sand never got turned over.

 

[Sunshine Flock]

I do not consider a loss of 5% of the birds an outbreak if that is normal loss from Marek's. You would have to raise 100 birds to have 5 die. I do not know many people that do not have a loss of 5 birds i 100. Must people need 10 years or more of chicken raising to have raised 100 birds..

That said someone asked what my plans are. I told you my reasons for not vaccinating. I am actually leaning towards vaccinating. I have a bottle/vial of vaccine in my fridge now.

I am going to be cutting down the number of birds I raise next year for personal reasons. I will be visiting lots of farms in the next year, God willing. Some of you know, some do not, I am running for the House of Representatives here in Minnesota. I will not have the time I have this year.

I still want to breed and show birds, that is my hobby. I will not be selling chicks except to a few people and paid for in advance. I will be selling started pullets and roosters later in the year.

By vaccinating I can save myself some money. I paid $22 for 1000 doses of vaccine. It does not come in a smaller batch. That does not seem bad. Here is the catch 22.

The vaccine is in two parts the live virus and a reagent to dilute and get it moving. Once they are mixed you have 1 hour to use it in. After and hour it is worthless. I might stretch that to an hour and 15 but I am gambling then.

It is made for large hatcheries that have these huge machines for giving the vaccine to chicks while still in the egg on day 18. I do not have that machine. The machine will do 10,000 eggs in an hour. I have to give the shot to the chicks one at a time.

I have sold 2 of my incubators to a friend here on BYC. I will be using just 2 this year. Even so I could hatch over 400 eggs on oneday if I wanted. I have lots of foamies too,...I do not want too. I hope to limit my hatches to less than 50 a day. I think I can vaccinate 50 in an hour or little over.

The vaccine takes 10 days to take effect. I will be keeping my chicks away from any contaminated or potential contaminated area for those 10 days. (can you say PITA)...

If they come in contact with the virus it is a race to see if the vaccine or the virus grows first. BTW I saw some called Mareks a mycoplasma, and even I might have. I apologize it is a virus, because it is a virus is why it can live for so long anywhere and every place. It can be carried on a birds foot or a bees butt. Drop off and wait to infect your bird.

At 22 bucks it is cheaper for me to vaccinate and not rol lthe dice on which bird lives. I have had a hard time deciding only because I like the idea of natural substances in my birds.

I have all but decided. To vaccinate because I am simply growing antibodies in the bird that can develop naturally. I am also considering fowl pox vaccine. It costs me time and money to raise birds. I need about 50-60 birds of each breed I show to get 1 or 2 show birds from....(that is if no one steals my birds)..

I am showing second class birds this year because my best were taken by disease or a thief. I will not show second class birds next year.. BTW My second class birds are pretty nice looking in many cases. but they are not show stoppers like I want.

Some one asked about which breeds were more resistant. That is really a question I cannot answer. I have not lost many Doms if any. That just happens to be luck on my part. I have lost Cream legbars and one white legbar for sure. It all depends on the farm, the strain of Mareks and the line of birds more than the breed.

I do know Murphy's law hits hard and my line of Speckled Sussex were hit hard. Not much help there, guys and gals, sorry.

If I am going to start vaccinating I will look at all available. I will not be doing New Castle or any other disease not in this area presently. Here i a link to some vaccines available and an interesting read:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps030

When I got my Welsummer chicks earlier this year, I didn't want them vaccinated. Feed stores don't usually vaccinate or order them already vaccinated, so that made it easy for me.

Do you find in your area that customers prefer vaccinated chicks?

Also, is it true that the Mereks vaccine completely absorbs into the chick and essentially disappears, leaving absolutely no trace aside from the antibodies? I also recall reading that it doesn't completely protect chicks.

And if someone intends to raise their chickens organic and perhaps even meet USDA organic certification standards, you can't use a vaccine. Is this correct?

No opinions or judgement here. I'm just trying to self-educate. Thank you!

 

[orrpeople]

When I got my Welsummer chicks earlier this year, I didn't want them vaccinated. Feed stores don't usually vaccinate or order them already vaccinated, so that made it easy for me.

Do you find in your area that customers prefer vaccinated chicks?

Also, is it true that the Mereks vaccine completely absorbs into the chick and essentially disappears, leaving absolutely no trace aside from the antibodies? I also recall reading that it doesn't completely protect chicks.

And if someone intends to raise their chickens organic and perhaps even meet USDA organic certification standards, you can't use a vaccine. Is this correct?

No opinions or judgement here. I'm just trying to self-educate. Thank you!

Because I have been doing research until my brain hurts, here are some of the answers I have found:
Feed stores get their chicks from hatcheries. The standard protocol for "most" hatcheries is to vaccinate. You can always call the feed store from whom you purchased chicks and ask them. If you purchase chicks directly from a hatchery, you often have the option to choose whether you want them vaccinated.
The biggest myth I encountered about the vaccine is that vaccinated chicks spread Marek's. The vaccine does not, in itself, cause the chick to become a carrier. That said, exposure to the disease does cause a vaccinated chick to become infected - they just never develop the lesions that lead to death. So, vaccinated birds are often carriers... as are unvaccinated birds with resistance. The disease is in the dander floating in the air - completely unavoidable.
Having a vaccinated bird does not interfere with the organic label. It's not an antibiotic or pesticide. It's made from a turkey virus. You can check into this further, but it's kind of like saying "My bird has bumble foot, so it's not organic anymore."
Lastly, yes, even vaccinated birds can succumb to the virus. Usually, birds with compromised immune systems are the ones who fall prey. As I stated earlier, vaccinated birds still carry the disease. If they have an overload of parasites, or other serious "stress factors", these can so weaken their ability to fight the disease that they succumb.
It's great that you are thinking all of this through. I have been so surprised by the "ignorance is bliss" attitude of most poultry folks, and greatly appreciate those who are willing to dig in and get information to make better, educated decisions for their flocks.

 

[orrpeople]

Thank you all for coming forward and posting this thread.

Yep, I've got it in my flock. This time last year I had 34 standard sized birds, 4 bantams. At this time I have 20 of the original 34 standards left and three of the original bantams. 4 roosters were rehomed before I realized I had Marek's in my flock and have since died from a fox attack. So my total losses from my original flock of 38 birds to Marek's is 11 birds. I suspect that my birds have fallen victim to a really nasty strain of the disease.

I've lost other birds to it also. My bantams have been highly prolific but I have lost my first birds to classic Marek's paralysis over the summer months and young birds who did not survive the initial infection. I'm roughly guessing that I've lost close to 19 birds, the last being a Welly/BO cross that had to be put down a week ago due to rapid weight loss and failing health. Tonight, DH and I treated one of 4 birds that has obvious ocular Marek's. Her eye is flared and looks horrible. She is a very sweet girl who talks to us the whole time we are working with her. As she is loosing weight in spite of eating well, I'm doubting if she will survive the winter.

In my flock I am finding that the most susceptible are my Buff Orpingtons. I have lost one Welsummer Rooster, and one Welsummer hen so far but the biggest losses have come from my BO's. Especially cockerels. I read somewhere that BO's are one of the more susceptible breeds of birds. BUT. There is a bright spot. My most resistant birds have been a group of Buff Orpington hens who will be 3 in February and showing no sign of the disease. I can go out in my flock and pick up three BO hens. One will have a prominent keel bone and two will be fat and sassy. Those hens who are fat and sassy are worth their weight in chicken feed to me. Roosters are dropping like flies, but those select hens are going strong.

I only have myself to blame in that I did not buy vaccinated birds but opted to start with birds from an NPIP breeder who bred for resistance. I couldn't have forseen that our farm is a virtual cesspool of Marek's viruses brought in either by wild birds or already existant in the soil. Had I suspected, I would have bought vaccinated birds or settled for ducks. Like others have stated. Good bio-security hasn't been worth the trouble.

I hate to say that it makes me feel better hearing that the disease is everywhere. It doesn't really. My birds are pets and I hate either watching them die, helpless to do anything to help them or having to put them down so they don't suffer. But I do love having the little boogers around so my plan is to phase out the standard birds I have even though I am beginning to see some resistance in my surviving BO hens. I'm hoping to start seeing resistance in my bantams and next year I am hoping to introduce vaccinated Egyptian Fayoumis into my flock.I doubt if I will vaccinate chicks I hatch from them but at some point in time I hopefully will start to see true resistance in my flock in birds other than the Buff O's.

In the mean time I plan to enjoy the heck out of my survivors and continue to mourn for the ones I loose. And yes, @duluthralphie I'm going to take your advice and just going to say "He or She died from Marek's" when I loose one and stop beating myself over the head over what I can or could do differently.

As for the OP. Would I pay 18$ for the mentioned test? No. My birds showed symptoms that were atypical for classic Marek's but looking back, completely typical for Neuro-Marek's and Visceral-Marek's. When I noticed ocular changes I had my husband use his slit lamp to examine their eyes and he diagnosed what was wrong with one word. Herpes. Didn't need any necropsy or blood test after that.

I think we all have went through the phase where we sit in front of our computers, typing in symptoms we are noticing in our chickens and hoping that we don't see the word Marek's pop up but it eventually does. We still deny it to ourselves until it is glaring us in the face but we suspect the worst. We don't want to but we do.

So now I have a closed flock. My plan to sell off extra roosters and pullets is in the hopper. My run is full of roudy, noisy and totally adorable bantam roosters that will live out their lives on our farm. It's a good thing I like roosters. The good Lord sure has let my hens hatch out a boat load of them for me.

Good thing I'm not in this hobby for the money......

Thank you so much for sharing your story. (I have seen some of your other posts on some of the other threads as well and always appreciate your insights). I definitely have found that knowledge is power, and would love to see more "you're not a leper" type information out there so folks really understand the prevalence of the disease.

 

[microchick]

I had a conservation officer tell us once that the biggest threat to the wild turkey population in our area are the Amish. It's their custom that if a bird dies on their property, they do not bury it or dispose of it in a safe manner. They simply toss the body in a ditch and that is the end of it. Whatever the bird died from, if viral or bacterial, is spread throughout the ecosystem and wild birds/animals become either infected or carriers.

Don't get me wrong, we live in the middle of a large Amish community, for the most part get along well with them and respect their way of life, but if they are doing this with dead turkeys, they are doing it with dead chickens also. We know they usually dump dead cattle or sheep in the timber and the nearest ravine to decompose and feed the local scavengers. It's virtually impossible to avoid air born contagion around us as a result.

On the other hand, they have large flocks of chickens, ducks geese and turkeys that are all fat and sassy, at least the ones that I've seen are. I started my bantam cross flock from eggs that I bought from an Amish neighbor on the premise that his flock has built up some natural resistance to whatever Marek's virus is infecting our area.

My bantams as stated have been prolific. I started with 4. Lost one to Marek's at 9 months (once again a cockerel that I believe succumbed to breeding stress) Hatched 11 in an incubator. At last count I have 39 bantam cross birds. I've definitely lost birds in this group to Marek's but the losses have been less than the deaths in the standard sized BOs, Welsummer and SS birds that I have in that flock. So possibly my theory concerning resistance is correct. I dunno, time will tell.

My surviving 3 bantams, one rooster , 2 hens are now almost 14 months old and have made it past that vital first birthday. With my roosters seldom making it past their second birthday. So the boy has a way to go before I can even begin to consider him as being truly resistant.

Thank you Mr Marek for making my hobby so challenging not to mention heart breaking.

I truly HATE your disease.

 

[duluthralphie]

When I got my Welsummer chicks earlier this year, I didn't want them vaccinated. Feed stores don't usually vaccinate or order them already vaccinated, so that made it easy for me.

Do you find in your area that customers prefer vaccinated chicks?

Also, is it true that the Mereks vaccine completely absorbs into the chick and essentially disappears, leaving absolutely no trace aside from the antibodies? I also recall reading that it doesn't completely protect chicks.

And if someone intends to raise their chickens organic and perhaps even meet USDA organic certification standards, you can't use a vaccine. Is this correct?

No opinions or judgement here. I'm just trying to self-educate. Thank you!

I was gong to answer the earlier post when I have time this morning. I read it on my phone and knew the answer would be long..

It appears you found most of the stuff I was going to say.

There are so many myths about Mareks. Most of which are out and out wrong.

The vaccine is for Turkey Herpes, if anything was spread by the vaccine that would be it. When people say a chick vaccinated for Marek's brought Mareks into their flock, they really mean, I had Marek's in my flock but I denied I had it until now when I have someone to blame.

Nice researching!

 

[microchick]

Thank you @orrpeople.

Where I live the nearest avian vet is almost 100 miles away. Our local vet, although he will treat ostriches and emus (meat birds some farms raise in our area strange as it sounds) he will not treat chickens. I've been able to pry advice out of him but he is on to me now and doesn't hang around long when we go into his office.....smart man, LOL.

There is so much misinformation out there concerning Marek's that it boggles the mind. I've learned to read professional reports but the biggest source of information I've found is here on Back Yard Chickens and coming from people who are also searching for answers to this disease.

Unfortunately we all are coming to the same conclusion.

 

[duluthralphie]

Thank you @orrpeople.

Where I live the nearest avian vet is almost 100 miles away. Our local vet, although he will treat ostriches and emus (meat birds some farms raise in our area strange as it sounds) he will not treat chickens. I've been able to pry advice out of him but he is on to me now and doesn't hang around long when we go into his office.....smart man, LOL.

There is so much misinformation out there concerning Marek's that it boggles the mind. I've learned to read professional reports but the biggest source of information I've found is here on Back Yard Chickens and coming from people who are also searching for answers to this disease.

Unfortunately we all are coming to the same conclusion.

Part of what we fight is everyone's desire to be "organic" and most people have no idea what it really is.

Vaccination does not affect the organic part. We are just introducing a weakened smaller does to build the natural immunity all birds (especially free range) have.

I have learned to kind of hold my tongue here (really @casportpony I have) It is the same with the people that like to free range their birds and feed them only Gluton free organic vegetarian feed.

I wonder if those people know what their little birdy is doing when chasing the grasshopper or mouse?.... My guess if the birdy gave up being a vegetarian...... Of course, mentioning that has caused fights...so I don't...

 

[aart]

The standard protocol for "most" hatcheries is to vaccinate.

I doubt this.....they aren't going to spend the money unless it's asked and paid for.
...pet peeve that vaccination is often not clarified with what vaccination, disease and strain.