Icelandic Chickens

[kathyinmo]

 

[The Sheriff]

Ok, promise not to turn us in to PETA?

 

[BoldogKennel]

Hello. I was lucky enough to score some eggs from The Warden, and they are healthy little chicks now. Here is a pic of them this AM:

As someone who is intensely interested in genetics and breeding in dogs, I have some questions I hope some one on here can help me with.

I'm having a really hard time seeing how a small base of animals, kept seperate on an island for 900 years, with no additional blood added would appear so "scatterbred" in appearance. I mean, I happen to believe in in and line breeding, and in only 4 generations I was able to get my line of dogs to come out like a cookie cutter by using the same sire for each sucessive generation. The health, behavior and appearance of these dogs are predicable (and excellent!) Now, you take a small number of chickens, put them on an island, and it simply doesn't make sense that they would end up with ZERO uniformity. Can someone show me where this has happened with ANY OTHER SPECIES? It may have, but I sure am not aware of it.

Here are the specific questions I would like to see discussed (as I am trying to decide if I want to keep them or not, as many of my dog friends are telling me that I've been chumped) so I can make an intelligent decision. Right now my common sense is nagging me.

#1: 900 years is a pretty long time. Does it not make sense that new birds were brought over all during the time that Iceland was being colonized?

#2: I would imagine sheep, horses, goats, dogs, etc were brought over about the same time as chickens. I KNOW the dogs breed true to type, and I think the horses and sheep do to. So is there any other breed of animal on Iceland that had this strange trait of not breeding to type? Why are the chickens the only ones who did this?

#3: Where can I read about the genetic "uniqueness" of the Icelandic chicken? Specifically, I'm interested in seeing how "far away" they are from other chicken populations.

I certainly appreciate any information given. My little guys are cute and sweet, but until I can get some reassurance that my common sense is incorrect, I'm not comfortable thinking I want to promote these birds as "pure". Once I read some scientific info on them, and by what genetic mechanism they are unlike ALL other animal breeds that tend to breed toward type, I am just a bit uncomfortable. I'm not one to just repeat what I have been told.

Please! Convince me! : ) I want to believe!

 

[Oldhound]

I must confess that I have some of the same questions re Islandics that Bolddogkennel has. The key West chickens have been there for a much shorter period of time and look a lot more alike , taking into consideration thay started out as games.
I cannot see how one can identify the real Icelandics , from those with infusions of other chickens, when there is no standard . Human nature being what it is , disreputable people can throw mutts into the mix and most folks may never know the difference.
Personally I think the Islandics are quaint and pretty in their own way, just have questions.

 

[Nitrostreak]

Quote:
It's the Bottle Neck Affect. Isolate a community and they are forced to "develop" their own variety. Traits that were once kept out by selective breeding or OTHER, stronger traits are allowed to come through.
Ultimately it's similar to the Galapagos islands and how the animals there are so completely different from their counterparts in neighboring areas.

 

[Jake Levi]

Hi Boldog

Welcome to the forum, good questions, you'll get lots of information here, this is the place. Some very nice looking youngsters that you have, they are going to be real beauties !!

Have you read the first few pages of this thread? Also check out Marys signature links, excellent information there.

Fwiw, I have a BS in An Sci, with a minor in genetics, and a MS in Fisheries Science with more genetics. I was born and raised on a livestock farm, and have spent most of my many decades in rural living. I have also bred and trained dogs all of my life. And I had many of the same questions that you are wrestling with.

First of all, there are many characteristics of the Icelandic Chicken that are very uniform;
size, ranging ability, hardiness, early laying, feather lay, feed adaptability, egg color, many others, the one set of traits that is varied is the appearance, I dont believe there was any selection pressure at all on them for appearance. Also, a number of the genes involved are not as paired with others as to make an appreciable difference. I really thing that diversity in the flocks apperance was sought after.

This was relatively easy to do just by keeping many more roos then most American farmers would have. Considering the remoteness of many Icelandic farms in winter it made sense to keep extra roos. And I see this ongoing in most of the flocks talked of here. Not remoteness of their farms, although we are pretty spread out but there is genetic strength in keeping a solid diversified sire base

Still, the basic characteristics of size, hardiness, ranging ability, maternal qualitys, male guardianship, and many more of the survival traits are very uniform and very much established.

There is a LOT of genetic drift in chickens, you can see this plainly in the difference between hatchery birds and fancier bred birds of the same breeds. Of course the hatchery breeds get a lot of outcrossing, but in just 40-50 years there is a major change in many of our traditional heritage chickens, for instance when I was a kid a S.C. RIR was rare, and looked down on, now there are more SC RIRs then there are RCs, and yet the standard calls for a RC !

Pick almost any heritage breed and you will find similar things.

Ref to outcrossing of the Icelandic Chicken, and other breeds: There has been a strong enforced prohibition of importing outside breeds of livestock to Iceland for many hundreds of years, only in the past 50 years, after WW2 were commercial layers and broilers let in, under very controlled condidtions, which led to the decline of the Icelandic Chicken in its homeland. It does have some different DNA from other modern breeds of chicken , and is a true breeding species/breed. Myself I would classify it as an ancestor species of the modern chicken, although they are bred from input of the mainland chickens that produced the Icelandic. It is very much a separate breed from them, closest to several old breeds of Norway and Sweden.

You'll get a lot of good input here.

Where in Wa are you? I am moving there next month, to the NE portion. Near the Pend Oreille Natl Forest.

Life is good, and better with Icelandic Chickens and Goats !

 

[BoldogKennel]

Thanks Jake. I live in Olympia. Where you are going is VERY pretty, though hot as hell in summer and cold as hell in winter compared to us maritime folks! But if you want isolation, you'll have it. (And fresh air!)

As to this comment:

Ultimately it's similar to the Galapagos islands and how the animals there are so completely different from their counterparts in neighboring areas.

It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) but it was the SAMENESS of the animals on each island (compared to similar animals on other islands/breedig populations) which helped Darwin with his theory... if the animal species on the Galapogos had all had the scatterbred appearance of the Icelandics, he would NEVER have been able to come to his conclusions. But the fact that these isolated breeding populations QUICKLY and COMPELTELY organized into UNIRFORM species is what gave him the clue.

Again, I'm just looking for proof that this phenom has happened ANYWHERE else with any other species... That would help me "believe"! Yes, I read the first several pages of this thread, plus other net research, and everyone basically says the same thing but I am failing to find SCIENTIFIC proof. I'm NO scientist! I can't spell any of those big words! : ) But I have done things like research the "blue" color in American Am Staffs to locate why it is unknown in "real" American pit bulls, for instance, and am willing to dig and do serious research before I make up my mind on something. And in NO WAY am I casting any doubt on the integrety of anyone selling Icelandics, as the few I know I know to be honest folks. But honest people can be wrong, or mislead. And every time I look at those chickens I say "genetics are inbred - appearance is scatterbred, how is that possible?" And by inbred I mean considering the very few number of chickens which "started" the breed 900 years ago, plus the very few used to start the breed in US.

Can anyone point me to the origonal Icelandic person's work on these birds? His genetic research for instance? And thanks for the kind words about my chicks, they are cute little dudes. Again, thank you for any and ALL info!
Diane Jessup​

 

[BoldogKennel]

Oh, one other quick question! I was looking at the beautiful birds on one site and I noticed many of the roos had very (very) large combs and waddles. Would not this have been selected AWAY from in a very cold climate? Like the Canadian breeds? It looks very leghornish - which is a breed imported to Iceland. I'm just wondering how the birds actually in Iceland deal with that? Even here in West Wa, where we are a mild maritime climate, my roos suffer frostbite if not dubbed. Does anyone here keep them in Northern climes?

 

[NotAFarm]

Quote:
Michelle, I use dog crates as broody boxes. I have had them inside the barn near the coops and inside the coop part of the barn itself. Keeping the doors on the crates allows me to separate the broody or let her out when I want her out. I have a small roll of wire that I use to "section off" the area around the door so she can move about put not too far and keeps wandering hens from getting into her nest. I keep food and water in small containers inside the crate. When the chicks hatch, I make sure they can reach the water by using a chick size waterer and by placing it low with no obstacles and use an ice cream tub lid or paper plate for gamebird startena crumbles. I have a couple of separate coops (a tractor that I use for meaties and a two section coop) that are outside the main coop in the yard. When the chicks are a couple days old, I will move momma and chicks to one of these. I then use the wire roll to "section-off" the area near the door to prevent the other chickens from "invading" their space. The chicks can fit through the wire holes (2 x 2) and when I notice they are getting brave enough to forage away from mom, I remove the wire and let mom take them around the yard as she sees fit. She will usuallly return the chicks to their own space for a while and then she will take them to the coop when she feels it's time. I will go out and get some pics for you if you want!

 

[thebirdguy]

So one of my pullets started laying on Sunday.. got an egg Sunday and one Monday.. the one Sunday was in the coop as they didn't get let out to free range.. Monday, they were out most of the day and we found it in the grass about 30 feet from the coop... Nothing in the nest box of course but at least one has started hatching... And yes both eggs are in the incubator with the eggs from Mary.. .

First thing my son asked me when we saw the egg was if we were going to hatch it... I said no at first but then figured... my first egg since I was a kid... gotta try hatching it ...

Here's hoping it hatches...