INCUBATING w/FRIENDS! w/Sally Sunshine Shipped Eggs No problem!

[casportpony]

Quote:
Is there any properly documented data/studies on this product and poultry? I'll eat crow if/when someone shows that it's an effective way to de-worm. Sure will be interesting to see what your fecals show.

-Kathy

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Is there any properly documented data/studies on this product and poultry? I'll eat crow if/when someone shows that it's an effective way to de-worm. Sure will be interesting to see what your fecals show.

-Kathy

I have no idea girl. There must be some historical evidence but no scientific studies that I know of. That said, my information would be merely anecdotal evidence. It would just satisfy me.

Have you seen the list of ingredients?
I don't have the list now so I need to buy more. I'd like to worm all the birds with it soon. I just need to be ready to do fecals.

 

[casportpony]

Quote:
I really does peeve me, lol. I'm sure there's lots of good info there, but some of the medication stuff is just wrong, and since people tend to believe stuff just because it's in a book, they'll think they're doing it correctly. Sigh...

-Kathy

 

[casportpony]

Quote: No, haven't seen the ingredients. What are they?

FWIW, I have searched high and low for studies, but cannot find them. If you have a fecal done and find a treatable number of worm eggs, threat with the herb, and follow up with negative fecals, that will get my attention, 'cause for all the talk of "natural" wormers, I don't think anyone has ever posted such info.

-Kathy

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Is there any properly documented data/studies on this product and poultry? I'll eat crow if/when someone shows that it's an effective way to de-worm. Sure will be interesting to see what your fecals show.

-Kathy

Don't eat crow. It tastes really bad. Hence the reason for the expression I suppose.
A co-worker that raise birds, rabbits and other things used to bring food to work. One day he brought jerky for everyone to try. Everyone thought it was disgusting and asked what it was. He said "crow".

I really does peeve me, lol. I'm sure there's lots of good info there, but some of the medication stuff is just wrong, and since people tend to believe stuff just because it's in a book, they'll think they're doing it correctly. Sigh...

-Kathy

The diagnostic guides, disease and disorders section, nutrition, parasite and postmortem sections are better info than I've seen anywhere else except in expensive text books.

 

[casportpony]

Quote: Many of the turkey starters will have bacitracin, which ducks *can* have, it's actually what I feed my peachicks, ducklings, and poults.

More links:
http://metzerfarms.blogspot.com/2011/11/can-medicated-feed-be-used-for.html
http://metzerfarms.blogspot.com/2011/03/are-my-ducklings-leg-problems-due-to.html

More on medicated feed:

Hi Kathy –

The issue here is not so much one of safety as it is one of regulations. Amprolium, the medication present in our medicated chick starter, has never been approved by the FDA for use in waterfowl. Therefore, we cannot legally recommend its use for these birds. However, veterinarians have been using it very successfully off-label for years as a coccidiostat for all kinds of birds, including waterfowl.

The fear of medication for waterfowl dates back to the early days of medicated feed, when sulfa drugs were used. Waterfowl typically eat more than chickens do, so when they ate feed medicated at a concentration that was ideal for chickens, they tended to over-imbibe the medication, which was often fatal. Amprolium is not a sulfa drug and does not have that effect.

Start & Grow is formulated to meet the growth needs of baby chicks until they reach 18 weeks of age. We recommend Start & Grow for chicks and Flock Raiser for waterfowl or mixed flocks. If you feel your waterfowl need medication, consult with your vet to determine what would be best for them.

Did you know that Purina make a medicated version of Flock Raiser? Here it is:​

​

Quote:

Wednesday, November 30, 2011

Can Medicated Feed Be Used for Waterfowl?

Can medicated feed be given to ducks and geese? Many people say No. I will explain why I feel the answer is Yes.

First of all, there are four drugs (medicines) that are approved by the USDA for the use in ducks. These have been used successfully for years to control a variety of waterfowl diseases. They are Chlorotetracycline, Neomycin, Novobiocin and Rofenaid.


The bigger concern, however, is sacked feed sold at your local feed store. Some of these sacked feeds (especially starter feeds) have medications in them to control coccidiosis. Coccidiosis is an internal protozoa parasite that can harm chickens, turkeys, game birds and occasionally waterfowl. As coccidiosis is a common problem, and most people have chickens, the feed manufacturers will often include medication in starter feed to better control this disease. But what about waterfowl? Will it harm them?

Non-medicated Starter Feed by Ace Hi - though I would prefer a starter as a crumble, not a mash​

We have contacted all the feed mills that we could find that make sacked poultry feed in the US. From material they have sent us or from their website, we have learned that these 29 mills make 59 different starter feeds for chickens, waterfowl and game birds. Of these 59 starter feeds, 19 have a medication in them to control coccidiosis.

Four drugs are used. Fifteen of the feeds contain Amprolium, 1 has Monensin, 1 has Lasolocid and 1 has BMD (Bacitracin methylene disalicylate).

Medicated Starter Feed with amprolium by Kalmbach Feeds​

To investigate this further, I asked for the assistance of Dr. Larry McDougal of the University of Georgia and Dr. Alison Martin of the Livestock Conservancy. Both of these individuals have done extensive work with coccidiosis. They found research that had been done here in the United States and abroad on the effect of these four drugs on waterfowl. As Dr. McDougal said “Not one of these papers described any harmful effects to waterfowl except where the normal dosage was significantly overdosed.”

Non-medicated Grower feed by Southern States​

Many of you have heard of Dave Holderread, of Holderread’s Waterfowl Farm in Oregon. Dave is an expert on waterfowl and an ultimate waterfowl breeder. He conducted research on coccidiostats with Oregon State University in 1982 (1). His paper states “Frequently publications pertaining to waterfowl state that medicated feeds should not be fed to ducklings and goslings. In some localities, producers and hobbyists who raise a small number of ducklings and goslings can only purchase medicated chick, turkey or game bird starter and grower feeds. Because of the lack of documented information on this subject and the numerous requests for advice on this matter, anticoccidial drugs zoalene, sulfaquinoxaline and amprolium were mixed in mash feed and fed to ducks up to four weeks of age.”

His conclusion was “From this experiment, it appears that sulfaquinoxaline, zoalene, or amprolium at the manufacturers' use levels for chickens and turkeys did not cause mortality, stunted growth or cripples when fed to Khaki Campbell ducklings to 4 weeks of age."

Therefore, it appears research shows these drugs do not harm waterfowl if used at the rates commonly used with chickens and turkeys.

Medicated Chick Starter using amprolium by Lone Star Mills​

Have there been coccidiostats used in the past that were harmful to waterfowl? Probably and that is why the myth began. But those drugs are no longer allowed or no longer used in the United States.

What if you have the choice of medicated or non-medicated starter feed of equal nutritional value? My recommendation would be to use the non-medicated feed. There is no point in feeding medication when it is not needed.

HOWEVER, if the choice is nutritionally correct medicated starter feed (20%+ protein) or non-medicated feed that does not meet the nutritional needs of the ducklings and goslings, I would definitely recommend the nutritionally correct, medicated starter feed. Research shows the medication will not harm the waterfowl.

(1) Holderread, D., Nakaue, H.S., Arscott, G.H. 1983 Poultry Science 62:112

-Kathy

 

[ChickenCanoe]

No, haven't seen the ingredients. What are they?

FWIW, I have searched high and low for studies, but cannot find them. If you have a fecal done and find a treatable number of worm eggs, threat with the herb, and follow up with negative fecals, that will get my attention, 'cause for all the talk of "natural" wormers, I don't think anyone has ever posted such info.

-Kathy

I don't currently have any in the house but I'll list them when I do.
Wormwood and black walnut are the only things that pop into my head.

 

[casportpony]

Quote: Thanks!

-Kathy

 

[DwayneNLiz]

*Much* narrower safety margin with Quest (moxidectin). I think the documented dose for almost all farm animals and birds is 0.2 mg/kg which I think is 0.0045 ml per pound. How much does a mini weigh? 200? 300? Horses get 0.45 ml per 100 pounds, so very easy to OD a mini, small pony, or a foal.

-Kathy

she was told to give a double dose
she gave 2 tubes of it, to her 200 # mini stud

 

[Akrnaf2]

CC you are right about the US Canada and Europe, but what will do countries that are based on live stock as primary food source?
Mongolia? Kazakhstan? Tajikistan? All the country of the Arabian peninsula? I can count also Argentina and Uruguay, all of this pepole will HAVE to grow plants, or let someone else to grow for them.