Insulating your coop?

[JoeST]

Looks like I’ll save the extra money & skip the insulation. Thanks everyone!

 

[gtaus]

FWIW, I live in northern Minnesota. I talked to a local guy who builds chicken coops for sale. He also has years of experience raising chickens here in MN. Anyway, none of his coops were insulated. I asked him why no insulation given that this past winter we had about 2 weeks of -30F to -40F (air temp, not wind chill) and would not insulation help? He answered that what you need is good ventilation and no drafts on the chickens. Any heat in the coop is going to rise and leave the coop via the vents. So, insulated or not, your coop is not going to be much warmer than the outside temp. He said he would add insulation and inside walls if a customer wanted to pay for the addition, but he told me that he thought is was unnecessary.

 

[gtaus]

FWIW, I live in northern Minnesota. I talked to a local guy who builds chicken coops for sale. ... He said he would add insulation and inside walls if a customer wanted to pay for the addition, but he told me that he thought it was unnecessary.

At the expense of quoting myself only to provide a counter argument, I just talked to our local 4-H Poultry coordinator who had an almost completely different take on the insulation issue. I thought I would pass on his comments for consideration for anyone who is still following this thread or may come upon it in the future.

Given that I intend on only have a small backyard flock of about 8 hens, he advised me to build a coup with the floor and walls insulated. His rationale was that the birds will generate a lot of humidity in the winter. If you only have a single, none insulated wall in the coop, the warmer moist air from the chickens will hit the freezing cold single wall inside of the coop and build up ice and/or be dripping wet inside the coop. Having insulated floor and walls assists you in keeping the coop dry and prevents frostbite on the chickens.

Along with that, he recommend using a bathroom fan to force humidity ventilation out of the coop. This is in addition to just regular open air ventilation you build in the coop. He puts his bathroom fan on a timer and has it run 15 minutes on/15 minutes off. I guess you can also get a humidity control switch to automate the process.

He also recommended getting a Cozy Coop heater, which is an electric flat panel heater, because this past year we had temps from -30F to -40F for about 2 weeks. This past winter was colder, longer, than normal, but it does happen and if you only have a few chickens in the coop, they have a hard time keeping themselves warm. The Cozy Coop heater is designed to warm the chicken(s) who stands directly in front of it, it is not really a heater for the coop.

He also recommended a heated waterer, which will also add a little heat to the coop while increasing the time before the water will freeze.

I had already purchased the Cozy Coop heater and an electric water heater base for my metal waterer, thinking that I would need them this coming winter. Our local L&M Fleet had both on sale this past month and they sold out fast.

What he said to me was that when the temp hits -30F and stays there, you start to rethink your heating and insulation requirements for the birds. And of course, a small backyard flock in a small coop will get hit harder than having 100's of chickens keeping each other warm in a heated barn.

Hope this counter argument is of some help. As I am learning, where you live has a big difference on how to care for your flock.

 

[Ted Brown]

... His rationale was that the birds will generate a lot of humidity in the winter. If you only have a single, none insulated wall in the coop, the warmer moist air from the chickens will hit the freezing cold single wall inside of the coop and build up ice and/or be dripping wet inside the coop.

Along with that, he recommend using a bathroom fan to force humidity ventilation out of the coop...

He also recommended getting a Cozy Coop heater,

Some comments:

• The rationale of insulation+wall to "prevent ice build-up and/or dripping wet" is bogus. If the coop is not heated and moisture is allowed to build up inside the coop the same issues will occur on the inside wall or (worse) inside the insulated cavity. If moisture builds up inside the cavity you are going to get mold and rot (vapor barrier will avoid this risk but is just more cost).
  
• "Bathroom fan". Build a coop that is designed to vent the moist air naturally and avoid the cost of fan+electricity and the risk of fan failure.
• "...recommended...a heater". There are many many comments herein that say heating is unnecessary and risks the birds in case of electrical failure. Add to this the cost of heating which can be significant.

Focus on building a coop that has proper and adequate ventilation but avoids drafts. Forget the additional cost of insulation+vapor barrier+inside walls+fans+heaters+electricity.

IMHO.

 

[aart]

Agrees with @Ted Brown's excellent points.
Have never had condensation on the uninsulated walls here...
....have had it on the underside of roof composed of 1x boards, asphalt shingles....during a thaw with a foot of snow on north roof.

 

[gtaus]

Did not mean to ruffle any feathers with my last post. Just passing on information I received today from a local poultry owner and judge who has kept chickens for 50+ years in my area. I have ZERO personal experience in keeping chickens over winter and am just trying gather as much information as I can as I design and build my coop.

But to respond to a few comments....

The rationale of insulation+wall to "prevent ice build-up and/or dripping wet" is bogus.

Well, I was surprised to hear him recommend insulation both the floor and the walls. But I think I passed on his recommendations accurately for a small backyard flock of 8 chicken in a small coop.

"Bathroom fan". Build a coop that is designed to vent the moist air naturally and avoid the cost of fan+electricity and the risk of fan failure.

I had never heard of using a bathroom fan in a backyard coop, but he felt it was especially important to force vent out the humid chicken air in the bitter cold.

"...recommended...a heater". There are many many comments herein that say heating is unnecessary and risks the birds in case of electrical failure. Add to this the cost of heating which can be significant.

To be clear, he recommend a Cozy Chicken coop heater, which is a flat panel radiant chicken heater, not actually a heater to heat the whole coop. A bird has to stand in front of the panel within inches to get any heat. From what I have read so far, providing any heat to the chickens in the winter is very controversial. Locally, I have talked to a few bird owners, who normally do not provide any heat for their chickens in the winter, but this past year we had 2 weeks of -30F to -40F temps. One day clocked in at -46F. Lots of people changed their minds on providing some source of extra heat for their chickens in those temps. At what point is the risk of freezing the bird today more of a concern than risk of an potential electrical failure in the future?

As to costs, if you ran the Cozy Chicken radiant heater on high, 24 hours, it would use 200 watts X 24 hours X $0.10 Kwh electricity = $0.48 dollars per day. My concern is not the cost, but rather if providing the heater would cause more problems than it solves. A few people that I have talked to only turn on the heater when the temps get down to -20F, which for us is normally usually only a week or two stretch.

Focus on building a coop that has proper and adequate ventilation but avoids drafts.

+1

Forget the additional cost of insulation+vapor barrier+inside walls+fans+heaters+electricity.IMHO.

I believe that the birds deserve fresh water available as long as possible during the winter, and I will have a heated waterer. It is only rated to keep the water unfrozen till about +15F, but still that will provide some extra time for the birds access to fresh water before it freezes. For most of the winter, that will be enough. Also need electricity for lights because it gets dark here about 4:15pm in the winter. For a good part of the winter here, we go to work when it is dark and come back home when it's dark. The electricity is for my convenience when I care for the chickens. But I have also been told you need to run a light for 14-16 hours per day if you want the chickens to lay eggs in the winter. A small watt LED bulb would only cost about $0.03 per day, at the most.

At any rate, anytime I can talk to a local with 50+ years on raising chickens in my area, and he was generous enough to talk to me for almost half an hour on the phone, I will listen and consider his thoughts. Just as I appreciate the feedback from other experienced people who may disagree. This will be my first year raising laying hens so I consider all advice and recommendations.

Just a final thought, to put costs in perspective, we can buy eggs for less than a $1.00 per dozen locally, so nobody around here gets into backyard chickens with the thought of making, or saving, money on a small flock.

 

[gtaus]

...Have never had condensation on the uninsulated walls here....

Well, the guy I talked to was very concerned that 8 chickens in a small 4X8 coop would raise the humidity level very high with their breathing and poo and it would cause condensation in the bitter cold. No doubt proper ventilation is the answer and I will be sure to read the Ventilation link you have in your sig. Thanks.

 

[Acre4Me]

Thanks for passing on the info.

I will have a heated waterer. It is only rated to keep the water unfrozen till about +15F

Actually, many will work far below this. We tried several options this year. We put the water in the coop to help protect it from the winds, and to encourage everyone to always drink (since the timid would likely stay in the coop during really cold/wet/icy/snowy weather). First a bucket de-icer didn't work (tried two). Then a bucket heater ...wow! too hot and the cage around it so it didn't touch the bucket sides rusted quickly and the birds would not drag the water (rusty flavor or too hot - not sure which one kept them from drinking). Finally, a heated dog bowl worked very well. We got to -18F with wind chill lower, but heated dog bowl worked throughout the worst of the Polar vortex.

Also need electricity for lights because it gets dark here about 4:15pm in the winter

I'm with you - we paid an electrician (who was already working on the barn electric) to add outlets, a light and a timer to the coop, and exterior lights. Totally worth it for the convenience. The timer added light to the coop for a total light of 15 hours per day. The girls laid through the polar vortex! They did slack off due to molting an broody behavior in Feb and March, but we always had a few eggs.

with 50+ years on raising chickens

Just because someone has done something for a long time, does not actually mean they are good at it nor, does it mean they have explored options beyond what they did from the beginning. Sure "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" can certainly apply. I can think of many people that have done X for decades, but they still aren't always a person I would go to for advice. His advice isn't terrible, and a person raising chickens in a very cold locale DOES have different concerns than a person in a temperate/mild climate.

humid chicken air in the bitter cold

Cold air holds little moisture. However, if there was little ventilation and the chicken pooping and breathing machines were in the coop for many hours, the humidity could increase, of course. Irregardless, frostbite can happen even in a well-ventilated coop - when the temp is cold, it is cold, and tissue will suffer. It's just that moisture will make it happen at "warmer" temps. If you want to keep frostbite at bay, and you get cold winters, then choose breeds with small combs (NOT single combs), and smaller wattles.

Overall, there are a few ways to move air through the coop. There are fans, and I would be less likely to use a household fan in a dusty environment. They sell ventilation fans for mounting in dusty livestock areas, so I would opt for one made for a dusty area. Some people use the turbine looking vents on the roof, which will draw air up and out. Some rely on a good roof slant with venting through the eaves.

Insulation....I do not have any in our coop. But, our coop is elevated 2.5 feet off the ground (and we can stand up in the coop), so this helps. It seems to be draft-free, too, although we have good ventilation. my main concern with insulation would be mice or rats or bugs deciding to make a home in it. So, if you do add insulation, you might want to put a 1/4"x1/4" HWC barrier so rodents cannot chew their way into the insulation.

Heat - we use a doubly anchored Heat lamp in the coop. It was connected to a thermostat that was set so the heat lamp would not come on until the coop temp (at roost level) was 15F or lower. My neighbor just keeps his on for the coldest part of the winter 24/7 (red light). Some people use heater bulbs (used for reptiles usually), or the panel heaters... or none at all.

 

[Ted Brown]

@gtaus It was not my intention to ruffle feathers either but I could not resist a bit of push back on some of the 4H guy's points.

50+ years of experience or not his rationale for insulating a unheated coop was and remains bogus.

The notion of needing to "force vent" implies to me that the coop is not designed to vent properly and ensuring this was the key point I was trying to make.

Your point on the Cozy Heater cost is certainly valid however I very much doubt that 200W of radiant heat will make much difference in -30F to -46F temperatures; physics is physics.

As to the balance of your points about electrical cost. I was in no way trying to say that a coop should not have to have an electrical supply (just make certain that it is properly and safely installed).

• You are extremely fortunate to be able to only pay $.10/kwh, many folks on this on this forum pay significantly more. Quebec where I live is, I believe, the lowest cost in NA; my kwh rate is $.05 for the 1st 3000kwh/month and $.08 for the balance; this is more than doubled when one adds in delivery, infrastructure and tax costs.
• Water is critical and heaters of some sort are necessary in the winter to ensure it does not freeze.
• It is accurate that the short winter days impact how many eggs a hen will produce. Providing artificial light is a personal choice; some folks prefer to give their birds a rest and forgo the extra eggs.

Cheers!

 

[Maugwa]

I find all of this very interesting. I knew about good ventalation and preventing drafts for my birds first winter last this winter. I'm at 7400' elevation in Wyoming, and not only did we get -50⁰ f a few nights this winter, we had several nights -30 and often those cold nights may be blowing 50 mph too. I covered one of the two vents under the eves, and put in a 250w red heat bulb, and one of those Cozey Chicken heaters too, and an electric water font. My Coup is 4' x 6' and 6' tall at the peak. It has all been caulked, and doors are tight, but it's not insulated. The two vents vent into the eves and were placed there specifically to be out of direct winds. they are 3" tall and about 15" long, but I covered the one on the side the wind comes from. But that first cold spell came and I saw several frostbit combs, particularly on my RIR rooster (actually the next day is when I bought the Kozey heater -- last one there, and I spoke with people at the farm store and heard several people had had it worse, even dead birds) That cold snap got better, but a few weeks later we got it even worse -50 and 50 mph at the same time. And the frost bit combs, that had began to heal, were back and worse, even with three kinds of heat. And the news was to expect a week of it. I was already worried about how much my wiring would stand. So I took three old sleeping bags out there and lathed them around the outside wall. I also covered the second vent. I had to remove a few screws each time I went in to feed and water, and see if I had frozen chickens, and gather eggs. Out of 15 hens, I don't think I ever found less than a dozen eggs a day. When it would get up to 20 or so above, I'd open their little chicken door and tack up the sleeping bag there, but most of the time they just looked out and said nope and stayed in. I just pulled the sleeping bags off and threw them away a couple weeks ago, and now it's snowing again, but in the + teens and twenties now. After I insulated (sleeping bagged) the hens all healed up and their combs look fine - they were mostly black in Jan, the rooster is healed up too, but he used to have a large lobed comb, now it's short and smooth.

I will be insulating my coup before next winter, no matter had I found this thread or not, I had already planned it. I'm not saying you guys who say not to are wrong, I'm just saying 7400' in the Northern Rockies is not like where what works for you works here where it is also extremely dry as well as high. I'm pretty sure the sleeping bag insulation is what saved my birds lives.