International Black Copper Marans Thread - Breeding to the SOP

[BlueTheBrahma]

Thank you for the suggestions. Huge BUT, Chooks Man instructed me to cull King. (Obvious parasitic? white, squirrel tail and he developed a neurological something)
Here's the back story just to catch you up and a question or 2 I've been mulling over.
King was with the Marans hens (original 3 Joannie Jett and Betty) since day olds. Kong was put in mix flock. (All 5 from Meyers hatchery)
Joannie went broody and King sired 4 (F1--3 girls and Prince) so we're up to 6 hens now, Prince got rehomed (same white and squirrel tail like King)
Fast forward June '23... 1 of the F1 hens goes broody. All eggs set under her are either Joannies or Jetts, I only set the darkest eggs and Betty wasn't laying...King sires 3 (Angel, Raven and Copper)
Chooks Man's favorite is Angel of the 3 pullets....
In December I switched roosters... Kong with Marans. King with mixed flock.

Here's some questions I've been wondering for anyone wanting to answer.

Seeings that these 3 pullets are Joannies or Jetts, these would still be F1's correct? Pullets progeny would be F2?
Angel lays the darkest egg just like Joannie. If not darker...Same shape.
Raven and Copper lay similar shape and color eggs to Jett. Is this a safe guess to Dam's ?
Seeing that King is the pullets sire. And King is (parasitic?) white and squirrel tail, but the pullets don't show white, does that make them recessive for white? Or does he produce bad cockerel line and good pullet line?
What will this cause moving forward with for example Kong x Angel with this scenario? If she is recessive for white, will she then throw white into her cockerel progeny?

Thanks for plowing thru all of this anyone and everyone.

I’m inclined to say that they will be bad cockerel line and good pullet line, because the parasitic white isn’t quite like the recessive or dominant whites. As far as I know (someone correct me), only Roos have the white at the tail base,

They can stilll be fixed over the generations, it might just take some hard work.

 

[chickengr]

Beyond the obvious pairings, test mate each hen and pullet to your 2 boys. Working with a small group makes things so easy.

Find out their qualities and what pairings makes the nicest progeny. Those will be your breeding stock for your line.

It sounds complicated but its really not. Just keep good records and before you know it, it will be sorted out.

Which pairings produce correct pullets.

Which pairings produce correct cockerels.

A small starting flock is so, so much better than a large group of random Marans that lay dark eggs. You are saving yourself a lot of work.

Down the road, when you know what they are capable of producing, then you may want to bring some other birds in that can improve what you need.

Just my 2 cents.

I sure do wish @Chooks man was here to confirm my suggestion.

I agree. and I hope @Chooks man is ok. I am worried as he has never been absent without a good reason.

 

[chickengr]

Thank you for the suggestions. Huge BUT, Chooks Man instructed me to cull King. (Obvious parasitic? white, squirrel tail and he developed a neurological something)
Here's the back story just to catch you up and a question or 2 I've been mulling over.
King was with the Marans hens (original 3 Joannie Jett and Betty) since day olds. Kong was put in mix flock. (All 5 from Meyers hatchery)
Joannie went broody and King sired 4 (F1--3 girls and Prince) so we're up to 6 hens now, Prince got rehomed (same white and squirrel tail like King)
Fast forward June '23... 1 of the F1 hens goes broody. All eggs set under her are either Joannies or Jetts, I only set the darkest eggs and Betty wasn't laying...King sires 3 (Angel, Raven and Copper)
Chooks Man's favorite is Angel of the 3 pullets....
In December I switched roosters... Kong with Marans. King with mixed flock.

Here's some questions I've been wondering for anyone wanting to answer.

Seeings that these 3 pullets are Joannies or Jetts, these would still be F1's correct? Pullets progeny would be F2?
Angel lays the darkest egg just like Joannie. If not darker...Same shape.
Raven and Copper lay similar shape and color eggs to Jett. Is this a safe guess to Dam's ?
Seeing that King is the pullets sire. And King is (parasitic?) white and squirrel tail, but the pullets don't show white, does that make them recessive for white? Or does he produce bad cockerel line and good pullet line?
What will this cause moving forward with for example Kong x Angel with this scenario? If she is recessive for white, will she then throw white into her cockerel progeny?

Thanks for plowing thru all of this anyone and everyone.

hens can carry parasitic white but don't show it. don't worry too much about parasitic white, that is the very last thing to correct. first dark eggs, shape, mass, etc. even tail is an easy fix. you just need 1 bird with correct tail.

 

[wrathsfarm]

I’m inclined to say that they will be bad cockerel line and good pullet line, because the parasitic white isn’t quite like the recessive or dominant whites. As far as I know (someone correct me), only Roos have the white at the tail base,

They can stilll be fixed over the generations, it might just take some hard work.

I need to learn a lot more about it, still confusing.

 

[wrathsfarm]

hens can carry parasitic white but don't show it. don't worry too much about parasitic white, that is the very last thing to correct. first dark eggs, shape, mass, etc. even tail is an easy fix. you just need 1 bird with correct tail.

If I don't ask questions, I don't learn and I seem to get overwhelmed with the wording or terminology quite often.
Some things click easy..
Good comb fixes bad comb.
Over colored fixes under colored.

But I get into autosomal, recessives, parasitics part of it and it's like Chooks Man says.. too much blah blah.

 

[Punkybrewster]

Thank you for the suggestions. Huge BUT, Chooks Man instructed me to cull King. (Obvious parasitic? white, squirrel tail and he developed a neurological something)
Here's the back story just to catch you up and a question or 2 I've been mulling over.
King was with the Marans hens (original 3 Joannie Jett and Betty) since day olds. Kong was put in mix flock. (All 5 from Meyers hatchery)
Joannie went broody and King sired 4 (F1--3 girls and Prince) so we're up to 6 hens now, Prince got rehomed (same white and squirrel tail like King)
Fast forward June '23... 1 of the F1 hens goes broody. All eggs set under her are either Joannies or Jetts, I only set the darkest eggs and Betty wasn't laying...King sires 3 (Angel, Raven and Copper)
Chooks Man's favorite is Angel of the 3 pullets....
In December I switched roosters... Kong with Marans. King with mixed flock.

Here's some questions I've been wondering for anyone wanting to answer.

Seeings that these 3 pullets are Joannies or Jetts, these would still be F1's correct? Pullets progeny would be F2?
Angel lays the darkest egg just like Joannie. If not darker...Same shape.
Raven and Copper lay similar shape and color eggs to Jett. Is this a safe guess to Dam's ?
Seeing that King is the pullets sire. And King is (parasitic?) white and squirrel tail, but the pullets don't show white, does that make them recessive for white? Or does he produce bad cockerel line and good pullet line?
What will this cause moving forward with for example Kong x Angel with this scenario? If she is recessive for white, will she then throw white into her cockerel progeny?

Thanks for plowing thru all of this anyone and everyone.

Youre correct with the f1+ f2.

Hens do not usually express the white but the cockerel/roosters will.

Chances are, your pullets and hens carry parasitic white. It is very common. A lot of test breeding and a lot of culling will help. You will start to get cockerels with less and less white with careful culling.

Squirrel tail is the same. Cull both cockerels AND pullets with it. I will be doing a hard pullet cull in the next few months. It keeps popping up because I would cull cockerels with it but didnt want to get rid of pullets.

The only way to find out if their paring creats a better pullet or cockerel line would be to test mate and see.

White is always a problem and a pain to breed out. If you breed your f1 back to their sire, you will be reenforcing that parasitic white. But you would be breeding them back to Kong not King, correct?

You dont know who exactly carries white so when pairing Kong and Angel, see what happens. Cockerels will be the ones to show it.

A large number of my pullets and hens carry the white and dont express it but some of their boys do. I just keep culling. Eventually, you end up with more free from it than express it. That is what is happening here.

For years, I was so focused on the "Parasitic white" that I ignored everything else. It took a Master Breeder in the US to show me that it is okay. He still gets Marans with white on occasion and he is a professional. Chill out.

So I take a step back, calm down and simply breed it out like I would dark eyes or high tail or knock knees. It took a big weight off my shoulders and now I can enjoy the process.

That being said, if your biggest issues are squirrel tail and white, keep your eyes open for a reputable breeder who has a rooster free from either or both.
I personally would concentrate on the low tail before the white if given a choice. It would be easier to find and get you going in the right direction.

 

[wrathsfarm]

Kong

King

His son Prince (rehomed)
The only cockerel I've ever hatched here.

 

[wrathsfarm]

Youre correct with the f1+ f2.

Hens do not usually express the white but the cockerel/roosters will.

Chances are, your pullets and hens carry parasitic white. It is very common. A lot of test breeding and a lot of culling will help. You will start to get cockerels with less and less white with careful culling.

Squirrel tail is the same. Cull both cockerels AND pullets with it. I will be doing a hard pullet cull in the next few months. It keeps popping up because I would cull cockerels with it but didnt want to get rid of pullets.

The only way to find out if their paring creats a better pullet or cockerel line would be to test mate and see.

White is always a problem and a pain to breed out. If you breed your f1 back to their sire, you will be reenforcing that parasitic white. But you would be breeding them back to Kong not King, correct?

You dont know who exactly carries white so when pairing Kong and Angel, see what happens. Cockerels will be the ones to show it.

A large number of my pullets and hens carry the white and dont express it but some of their boys do. I just keep culling. Eventually, you end up with more free from it than express it. That is what is happening here.

For years, I was so focused on the "Parasitic white" that I ignored everything else. It took a Master Breeder in the US to show me that it is okay. He still gets Marans with white on occasion and he is a professional. Chill out.

So I take a step back, calm down and simply breed it out like I would dark eyes or high tail or knock knees. It took a big weight off my shoulders and now I can enjoy the process.

That being said, if your biggest issues are squirrel tail and white, keep your eyes open for a reputable breeder who has a rooster free from either or both.
I personally would concentrate on the low tail before the white if given a choice. It would be easier to find and get you going in the right direction.

Yes, everyone's being bred (test mated) to Kong now. I have no Marans sired by him.
(Big comb and narrow towards rear)

 

[Punkybrewster]

Yes, everyone's being bred (test mated) to Kong now. I have no Marans sired by him.
(Big comb and narrow towards rear)

Hatch a whole bunch. Dozens. More to choose from and you can have your freezer and pantry full for next winter.

Your not going to get perfection all at once. Something I struggle to have patience with!

He is a nice boy. Yea, his comb needs to be smaller and his backside wider. Ignore it for now. He has other awesome qualities! He is a nice start for your line. You are ahead of the game

I dont see white on him so far? Thats a plus. He is def your breeder. Youre gonna be busy

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

Kong
View attachment 3738273View attachment 3738271
King
View attachment 3738272View attachment 3738269
His son Prince (rehomed)
The only cockerel I've ever hatched here.
View attachment 3738270

I love Kong so much. He’s in essence the mental image I have when I think of a BCM rooster. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: his copper is stunning.