Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[IowaBlueCurt]

So, I don't know where Pierce and Morgan are located, however, upon taking to the owner of The Poultry Hatchery, they maintain their own flock of Iowa Blues on the premisis and they have multiple lines of them. So Pierce and Morgan are out of the equation at this point. All of his stock is Silver Penciled. He was VERY gaurded about his flock details, which I did expect to some extent. He also said that he could not devulge his flock source details.........which makes it impossible to verify with absolute certainty whether or not his flock is pure. He mentioned a couple of things that have tripped my trigger and I strongly believe that we have an source of original Iowa Blues without any outcrossing.

It is too bad, because if we have a source here that originated before the outcrossings took place then this flock would be of utmost importance. Because of his very strict protection of his flocks, he has been able to (if his claims are accurate) to have maintained the Iowa Blue in its original form, however by having such strict guidelines, he also is limiting the breed's ability to spread and repopulate. Some examples,

No pictures can be shared or given to interested buyers to see what the stock looks like.
If you buy stock it is pick up in New York only.
He only sells to people who he thinks will preserve the breed in its original form.
If you buy stock from him, you cannot sell anymore than what his company says you can sell in a year. This number changes every year depending upon variables. So you are locked into a limited ability to spread the breed and help get stock into the hands of others who would help to establish the original form.

These are just some examples, the list is quite long. These policies are a double edged sword of sorts. I can see his desire to maintain the breed's purity, but you can't do that if stock purposely remains severely limited as people will begin to breed their own "versions" and overtake the breed. Example....Ideal and the Birchen color.........

 

[debs_flock]

Some examples,

No pictures can be shared or given to interested buyers to see what the stock looks like.
If you buy stock it is pick up in New York only.
He only sells to people who he thinks will preserve the breed in its original form.
If you buy stock from him, you cannot sell anymore than what his company says you can sell in a year. This number changes every year depending upon variables. So you are locked into a limited ability to spread the breed and help get stock into the hands of others who would help to establish the original form.

Those types of demands always send up a red flag for me too.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I know. I'm not going to get too stressed out about it. But it does make me quite cautious. If one were truely interested in preserving and saving a breed, they would do all that they can to prove that their line was from a particular source and get that line out to people who are serious about preserving and saving the breed. They wouldn't limit another's ability to spread and share the breed. My thoughts though....to each their own. He seemed rather nice and quite concerned about the breed's integrity.
So, it is what it is........Maybe in the future, he will be more accomidating. We will be keeping in touch.

 

[debs_flock]

Yes, I'd love to get more SP in my flock. I have one SP hen and a whole bunch of birchens!

 

[WVDan44]

Can you spell "Opportunist"...? I[ll bet this guy is reading our posts and knows what we are all about, and he's trying to profit from it. If he decides to keep up this difficult list of demands, he may find himself on the outside looking in. The breed club will have to move on without him. I sure think he would be better served by working with us. JMHO.

 

[Hurley]

In my experience, honestly is usually coupled with openness.

Would like to think of the potential for a "pure" flock out there, but without verification/validation/willingness to share, even if they are pure, they aren't of any more benefit than other Iowa Blues at this point.

Call me skeptical, but any time I've encountered people claiming "topsies" for whatever reason coupled "because I said so, but I don't want to say where I got them, but they're really really really pure," with later finding out the origin isn't what it was proposed to be. Be it for profit, for notoriety, or whatever, any time someone won't share origins on something they are selling, I'm instantly skeptical and typically even if it WAS what it was cracked up to be, I wouldn't wish to be associated with the person offering.

Then again, I've never understood the non-sharing of information mentality, but I'm not in it for profit, fame, or ego I guess. Beyond those reasons, the only other reason I would see to not be able to answer origin questions on the first pass is shady information.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Those are my sentiments exactly. I did however, contact Alison from the ALBC as the owner said he could prove that the stock was pure and was not outcrossed, and that he would consider communicating with the ALBC as a "middleman" so to speak. I talked with Alison yesterday, and we'll see how far she can get.
I shared with him that if his claims were true, but was unwilling to share the origins of his stock, that the club would view his flock as unpure until proven pure. And if he had been preserving a pure line of IB for decades with such a gaurded protection, that it would ironic to see his flock disappear as without the club acknowledgement, very few if no one would be interested in his stock.
Alison did share that often times with rare breeds the reason a remnant is saved is because someone holds the breed so dear and tight and almost "covet" the breed to the point that they risk the extinction of the flock/herd as they often times are very reluctant to release any stock to other breeders. It becomes a double edged sword of sorts. The reason a remant is left is because of the strong control a person has to preserving this particular breed when everyone else has left it behind, but because they are so attached to the breed, they don't want to let anyone else have stock. Even if this means something as simple as releasing extra fertile eggs. They'd rather let them go unhatched then share the stock. So they save the breed from extinction (in its purest form) but then risk the breed to extinction and in some cases succeed in the extinction when some uncontrolable disaster strikes...........She shared that nearly every rare breed has similiar stories and it can be at times very difficult to obtain parts of a flock once the ALBC has verified that a flock is in fact pure.
What I'm hoping for at the very least is that the ALBC will be able to work with him in order to verify either a yea or nay on his flock as we as a club an proceed on with the knowledge. If this flock is verified as a yea, the ALBC will be able to kick the IB from "study" to "critical" which would be very benefitial............

 

[karimw]

That's too bad about his attitude. I wonder if he also breeds cats or dogs because those type of animal breeders will do that too. However they understand the importance of registry and making sure some backyard breeder can't start up a puppy mill with their offspring. They promote their bloodlines and can prove their lineage. There is a big difference between selling puppies vs chickens though, you need to sell a lot more chickens to make it work! It's great he wan's to keep them pure but it would be nice if he supported the breed as a whole. Would he join the club or at least write an affidavit as a breeder?

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

At the present, he was not interested in joining membership until he had developed in his opinion, that the club was doing what it "should be" and as far as signing anything, he made clear many times that everything has to go through his attorneys...........anyway, until it is proven that his line is what he claims it to be, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what comes of it. He did mention that years ago he cought someone who had aquired his stock selling offspring and claiming that they had "saved" the breed and developed the flock from collecting remnant flocks. He wasn't going to let some "schmuck" ruin his decades of work again. Understandable...........

I told him that if he could give me a date when he obtained his flock or characteristics of his flock, I could verify whether or not his flock was pure without needing to know exactly where he obtained his flock from, but he was unwilling to yeild even that information. I asked for pictures of his cocks and hens (assured him I wouldn't pass those along) and I could verify the purity from the pictures, but again was unwilling to co-operate. A bit frustrating.................why could not these birds have been in another man's flock?

I'm not getting my hopes up too far as I was given these same assurances from Ideal, that the birds were absolutely pure, collected from remnant flocks, the history of the flocks could not be shared with me, no pictures could be given, but I was assured they were exactly what I was looking for...........and we can see how that turned out...................

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Jake, if you're out there.........How did your hatch turn out?????? Any babies yet?