Is buying organic defeating the purpose if it is Cargill?

[catchthewind]

I had a choice between regular chicken feed, a chicken feed milled locally that is non-GMO, non-soy, and all whole locally-produced ingredients (ie. kelp instead of synthetic vitamins and minerals), and an organic feed that is basically just four different grains and a whole bunch of synthetic vitamins and minerals. I chose the local, non-GMO but non-organic one. Really, from what I understand, the company just hasn't jumped through the hoops to be certified organic, but if their ingredients are non-GMO they are likely to be organic as well. Anyway, I'm okay with the fact that it's not organic as I like the fact that it's local, doesn't have soy, has fish meal and kelp and other whole food sources and lots of variety of different grains, and it's cheaper than organic. I don't know anything about Cargill, so can't really comment on your situation, but to me it's not so cut-and-dry as organic or not. Organic doesn't necessarily mean much to me if the ingredients are all imported from China, for instance.

 

[silkiechicken]

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Yeah... I'll go with local over certified organic. I personally cannot afford the "certified" price tag, as gov't meddling is where a lot of "organic" costs come from. Like "organic" eggs, it does not mean the hens were also cage free. Just feed the naked battery caged birds "certified organic" feed and you can sell eggs for $$ because they are "organic".

 

[catchthewind]

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Exactly! And organic free-range eggs are a joke too, but cost like $6 a dozen here. I can get farm-fresh truly free-range eggs from the local farms for $4/dozen. I don't even really care if they feed their chickens organic feed or not, I still think the eggs themselves are miles better than the more expensive "organic" ones from the grocery store.

 

[mamabahre]

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I know it doesn't mean much but locally milled is NOT an option around here..I would make my own feed if I was confident in my ability to get it right nutritionally and could afford it...Organic is still non GMO and that is a big deal.

Your local mill sounds a lot like many of the farmers at our local markets. They are organic they just don't jump through the hoops the USDA sets up to get get the certification. I'm jealous you have such a good source. Unfortunately in this instance it is that black and white and it sucks but we just have to deal. We aren't exactly in farmville USA around here.

Oh someone asked, we are on Cape Cod...If someone knew a local mill around here I would love to hear about it because I have made phone calls. Talked to farmers and googled the heck out of it!

 

[catchthewind]

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Yeah, I do feel lucky that we have that source. We're not exactly farmville either, so it's nice! I guess as far as your situation goes, I more meant that there is a lot more I would look at besides organic or not. If you have ethical problems with Cargill, the other one might be a better option for you. Also, organic can be a bit of a crock anywa. I've heard that some companies grow their organic and non-organic crops right next to each other, but only spray the non-organic ones. However, who's to say the sprays don't blow over to the organic ones? I don't know how true that is, I really don't know a whole lot about the certification process. I really believe in eating organic and feeding my family organic as much as possible, but my definition of organic is different than the mainstream. As I said above, I would choose non-organic apples from a local farmer whose business practices I agreed with over apples imported from China or Mexico. If I couldn't get local, then, yeah, ethical concerns would definitely come into play for me, because I am so skeptical of the organic certification and what it really means for consumers.

 

[BunsNChicks]

Have you thought about getting organic through the mail? try modestomilling.com

 

[mamabahre]

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Yeah, I do feel lucky that we have that source. We're not exactly farmville either, so it's nice! I guess as far as your situation goes, I more meant that there is a lot more I would look at besides organic or not. If you have ethical problems with Cargill, the other one might be a better option for you. Also, organic can be a bit of a crock anywa. I've heard that some companies grow their organic and non-organic crops right next to each other, but only spray the non-organic ones. However, who's to say the sprays don't blow over to the organic ones? I don't know how true that is, I really don't know a whole lot about the certification process. I really believe in eating organic and feeding my family organic as much as possible, but my definition of organic is different than the mainstream. As I said above, I would choose non-organic apples from a local farmer whose business practices I agreed with over apples imported from China or Mexico. If I couldn't get local, then, yeah, ethical concerns would definitely come into play for me, because I am so skeptical of the organic certification and what it really means for consumers.

I feel ya...Organic certainly doesn't mean what it used to and you are correct, a lot of big agri does in fact plant non organic right next to organic crops....Recipe for cross contamination but they don't care. Buying local is generally the preferred method and I like you will generally choose the non organically labeled (although there is a good chance it will be grown organically anyway) apple from down the road over the apple from Mexico or where most "organic" produce comes from during the winter Argentina.

It is an uphill battle just to figure out what you are eating and the certification process only really works well for larger companies, but it was designed that way. There is debate as to whether it was designed (the process) in such a way to screw over small farmers who simply couldn't afford to pay the fees etc. You get the "beyond organic" movement these days, which is basically eat local as a priority because there is a good chance your local farmer is organic anyway...

DH and I are still debating the merits of everything, which is fortunate because we have a couple weeks before we run out of feed. Another option is when I travel to Maine to visit family soon and I will be in a much more rural area. I travel up there enough it might be worth looking into some local mills there to see what I can find and bring back some good feed.

 

[panner123]

As many here knows I am not a fan of organic feed. Not because of the price or it not being the right feed for you or your critters. But because the rules are not set up equal in all states. What may be orgnic in your state, may not be in mine. I have been stating this for years here, back just a page or two you will find a thread dating back to 12/07, titled Why Organic. This was raised from the dead a few days ago, there I made a statement which hold true yet today. I lost the full article I will quote here, but it is titled Organic foods: Certification Does Not Protect Consumers by Stephen Barratt MD. The full article goes into many different levels of things permitted in different states. What I did find is a quote from this article which states. " For raising animals, antibiotics would not be permitted as growth stimulant but would be permitted to counter infections. The rules permitt up to 20% of animal feed to be obtained from non-organic sources. This was done because some nutrients (such as trace minerals) are not always available organicially. Irradiation, which can reduce or eliminate certain pests, kill disease= causing bateria, and prolong food self life, would be permitted during processing. Genetic enginering would also be permissible." I will continue to search for the full article, as it states the sources of the different limits in different arears. Canada being the first to set organic rules. Just a few years back it was leagal to sell an organic product if only 1/2 of 1% was organic. That has now been changed for the better, but not good enough.

If the rules were set equally in all areas I might feel diferent about this, but until then I will feed my critters as I have for the last 60 plus years.

Look at the different rules for cannabis, here in Ca. I could go to some doctor and tell him I have a pain someplace on by body and get a license to use it. Yet, if I go to some state that doesn't permitt this, I am going to jail.

The best way to look at this is, have a Bar-B-Q and ask your guest how they want their steaks cooked.

 

[mamabahre]

I actually read the ENTIRE thread you are referring to. It took me a while but I got through it! It was so interesting to me, especially because it started several years ago and before the big push for organic everything. The article you quoted sounds interesting and I will be sure to read it. Does it refer specifically to one state's regulations? That is my big curiosity.

I am not militant about organic products but I am firmly and strongly against GMOs and at this point in time buying organic products (for humans anyway) is one of the few ways (thank you Big Agri for lobbying AGAINST labeling GMO products) to ensure I am not supporting the use of GMO products. It might not be important to you Chicken Obsessed but to a lot of us younger generation of wanna be homesteaders it is! I cannot in good conscious contribute to the continuing production of GMO crops. So I guess that is my answer to myself.

I do appreciate your input but we (I mean my younger generation, I'm a mere 25 years old btw) will be suffering the consequences of of our elders creating these GMOs and copious pesticide use (I know many organic farmers use "organic" pesticides) for years to come. The movement to go organic is a movement to reclaim small farms and work the land in a sustainable fashion. This goes down to how you feed your animals. Hell my dog eats better than I do sometimes. I will be eating my chickens eventually and I will certainly be eating their eggs sooner than that. I don't want to eat a chicken that has been fed GMO grains its whole life. It would basically be defeating the purpose of me having the birds in the first place...

I am on a mission to find a decent local source of organically grown feed for my chickies...We'll see how it goes. Cape Cod is a pretty affluent area (well at least during the summer) and wealthy people love their organics, the farmers here cater to that market during the summer farmer's markets so I think it is time to reconnect with a few local farmers I know and see where they get their feed from..

 

[mamabahre]

Oh for anyone interested I found a great resource for locally milled organic feed suppliers...Unfortunately the closest one to us is over an hour and a half but maybe it can help someone else!

http://www.farmers.coop/resources/feed-mills-and-suppliers/