Is buying organic defeating the purpose if it is Cargill?

[Katy]

Quote:
Not trying to start an argument here, but as someone personally involved with "big agri" as you call it I don't think you are quite as well informed as you would like to believe and need to watch what "misinformation" you are spreading.

someone involved with big agri would naturally dislike what I say... My BIL was a lobbyist for Monsanto, the conversations we have are alway very "interesting"..I imagine it is threatening to hear negative things about your industry but that certainly doesn't mean they aren't true. I haven't said anything here that I can't back up with facts and citations, most of them come from actual books though and I am typing most of this one armed while I nurse my daughter so I don't really have the time to grab books and cite everything.

I don't feel threatened by you at all. I actually find it rather sad that some people have the "throw the baby out with the bath water" mentality when it comes to modern agriculture. Despite what you seem to believe most of the food produced in this country comes from a family farmer....me being one of them. Even tho we may not be organic and we may grow GMO crops that does not mean we are not ethical, taking care of our ground and doing what we feel is right.

You say that you are not judging....but you are. You seem to be lumping all farmers unless they are a small local organic farmer together.

I don't care if someone wants to eat organic...that is their choice, but the fact remains that we can not feed the number of people we have in this country let alone other countries who buy our products if everyone went organic.

I'd like to see your facts....and even more importantly......who they were published by. There is a study or a publication to support any argument a person wants to make whether it's pro or con big ag. I'm certain I can find one to dispute any one you care to post.

I just very tired of people removed from an industry making blanket statements when they have no personal experience in that area.

Not sure what your point was in referring to nursing your baby....trying to prove you're a down to earth gal? Well, I nursed all three of my kids for 2 years apiece so I don't think you're doing any better than I did on that point dear.....and my "baby" is 29.

 

[mamabahre]

Quote:
someone involved with big agri would naturally dislike what I say... My BIL was a lobbyist for Monsanto, the conversations we have are alway very "interesting"..I imagine it is threatening to hear negative things about your industry but that certainly doesn't mean they aren't true. I haven't said anything here that I can't back up with facts and citations, most of them come from actual books though and I am typing most of this one armed while I nurse my daughter so I don't really have the time to grab books and cite everything.

I don't feel threatened by you at all. I actually find it rather sad that some people have the "throw the baby out with the bath water" mentality when it comes to modern agriculture. Despite what you seem to believe most of the food produced in this country comes from a family farmer....me being one of them. Even tho we may not be organic and we may grow GMO crops that does not mean we are not ethical, taking care of our ground and doing what we feel is right.

You say that you are not judging....but you are. You seem to be lumping all farmers unless they are a small local organic farmer together.

I don't care if someone wants to eat organic...that is their choice, but the fact remains that we can not feed the number of people we have in this country let alone other countries who buy our products if everyone went organic.

I'd like to see your facts....and even more importantly......who they were published by. There is a study or a publication to support any argument a person wants to make whether it's pro or con big ag. I'm certain I can find one to dispute any one you care to post.

I just very tired of people removed from an industry making blanket statements when they have no personal experience in that area.

Not sure what your point was in referring to nursing your baby....trying to prove you're a down to earth gal? Well, I nursed all three of my kids for 2 years apiece so I don't think you're doing any better than I did on that point dear.....and my "baby" is 29.

I was making the point about nursing my kid because that is what I was doing at the time! Yikes, she is 22 months old and I am certainly not nursing her to prove anything. That is fairly rude coming from a nursing mama yourself. I'm not trying to win some hippy of the year award for nursing my kid...ok that just really annoyed me and I would love to call you a really nice name in person but I won't go there. Nursing mothers have enough BS to deal with in this country I didn't expect to get flack from another one for explaining why I don't have time to sit and write a dissertation on the organic farming subject.

Like I said and I think I will stick with it. People in big agri get defensive about the subject of local, organic, small sustainable farming because it is literally a threat to their way of life. I have heard the argument you can't feed people using small scale farming and there are debates on both sides. Every single person can produce a study to argue their point you are right about that, so why would I waste my time posting all my sources etc so you can counter argue with your cites. My point was I don't have the time to sift through my books and pull out each individual citation because yes, a lot of the time when I am on the computer my kid is right next to me nursing away and doing acrobatics at the same time...Ha, that is the first time I have ever been accused of trying to prove how "down to earth" I am by nursing a toddler..!

Anyway, sorry I don't find big agri to be the most ethical business. I imagine on a personal level the people who work for companies like monsanto are good people. In fact I know they are because I am related to one. You are trying to feed your family. Just don't sit here and tell me I am wrong because you are personally offended that I take issue with the copious pesticide use/chemical fertilizer (all of which are running into the water that drains into the ocean and destroying life there as one example of the hidden costs of big agri) GMO crops and CAFOs..Sorry if that doesn't jive with you because it is your industry, I can understand the defensiveness though. It is VERY personal to you. Just because you do that for a living doesn't mean it isn't hurting the eco-system or is good for people in the long run or that there aren't better more sustainable options for A LOT of people (not everyone).

The big agri industry would have us believe a tomato is a tomato is a tomato and what we are learning every day is that is simply not true.
I can see this devolving into the exact same BS the HUGE thread about "why organics" turned into...This was primarily about my problems finding organic feed locally not about organics in general. I don't have time to do the exact same argument as the other thread, I'm just trying to win my mommy points by taking care of my nursling

 

[panner123]

Many here are of the mind set that organic is the best thing since slice bread. The truth is, only 1 in maybe 10000 could handle being truly organic. Think about when the last time there were no chemicals. Could you go without all that these chemicals have given us? We would have NO airplane, car, eletricity, TV, radio, records or players, computers, telephones and no cell phones. Of that group I have only 4, car, eletricity, computer and phone (radio in car). How many here would want to live without or could live without these things. Up until June of 2010 I I only used wood for heating my house and most of the cooking, only because of age and a medical problem did I stop. How many would want to cut wood for your home. To be completely organic you would. My son in law wanted to open a can of something they had for my grand daughter and wanted a can opener, I told him where he could find one. A few minutes later he asked agian, so I got it for him. When I handed it to him, he asked what is this. It was a non eletric can opener and he didn't now how to use it. You want to be COMPLETELY ORGANIC, try going one hour without using something that chemicals provided you with. It CAN NOT be done, it is to late. Now you have to go with the flow and do the best you can. Face a fact of life, you do the best you can to give your family and critters the best for them. You use no chemicals on your crops and feed no chemicals to your critters. You have a nice garden and raise your food, but your neighbor sprays all his crops. Does this mist stop at your property line? Does the people where you get your animal feed care what is in the feed? Are you willing to give up the easy life? If you can answer YES to any of these questions, you are a dreamer and living a lie. If it were not for all this so called envirormental rules, we would be paying about a dollsr a gallon for gasoline and lot less for almost everything else. Within the borders of the US we have enough oil to last for over 2000 years and not need to buy an ounce of oil from anyone. Then we might need to drill off shore for awhile. That I believe has been stated in The New York Times. Just happen to know someone that works for a large oil company that did the testing and saw one of his reports. But they are blocked from drilling.

 

[schellie69]

I agree that there are good and bad on both sides. I am not sure that organic is all that great for the environment when they truck fruits and veggies from across the world here. I and grow my own vegetables and fruits I use my own eggs I don't use any chemicals on my lawns chickens get the weeds I use my own compost for my garden. I wish I had a local mill for feed but no even if I do live in the middle of farm country. Some day I hope to have a farm and then I will grow my own food naturally maybe not organically like the government rules say but I think they over think some things. I do thank Katy for her work as a farmer who does what she needs to do to feed her family but still takes the environment issues to heart also. I think we need all kind of food growers these days we can use our money to show what we want.

 

[Katy]

Quote:
I don't feel threatened by you at all. I actually find it rather sad that some people have the "throw the baby out with the bath water" mentality when it comes to modern agriculture. Despite what you seem to believe most of the food produced in this country comes from a family farmer....me being one of them. Even tho we may not be organic and we may grow GMO crops that does not mean we are not ethical, taking care of our ground and doing what we feel is right.

You say that you are not judging....but you are. You seem to be lumping all farmers unless they are a small local organic farmer together.

I don't care if someone wants to eat organic...that is their choice, but the fact remains that we can not feed the number of people we have in this country let alone other countries who buy our products if everyone went organic.

I'd like to see your facts....and even more importantly......who they were published by. There is a study or a publication to support any argument a person wants to make whether it's pro or con big ag. I'm certain I can find one to dispute any one you care to post.

I just very tired of people removed from an industry making blanket statements when they have no personal experience in that area.

Not sure what your point was in referring to nursing your baby....trying to prove you're a down to earth gal? Well, I nursed all three of my kids for 2 years apiece so I don't think you're doing any better than I did on that point dear.....and my "baby" is 29.

I was making the point about nursing my kid because that is what I was doing at the time! Yikes, she is 22 months old and I am certainly not nursing her to prove anything. That is fairly rude coming from a nursing mama yourself. I'm not trying to win some hippy of the year award for nursing my kid...ok that just really annoyed me and I would love to call you a really nice name in person but I won't go there. Nursing mothers have enough BS to deal with in this country I didn't expect to get flack from another one for explaining why I don't have time to sit and write a dissertation on the organic farming subject.

Like I said and I think I will stick with it. People in big agri get defensive about the subject of local, organic, small sustainable farming because it is literally a threat to their way of life. I have heard the argument you can't feed people using small scale farming and there are debates on both sides. Every single person can produce a study to argue their point you are right about that, so why would I waste my time posting all my sources etc so you can counter argue with your cites. My point was I don't have the time to sift through my books and pull out each individual citation because yes, a lot of the time when I am on the computer my kid is right next to me nursing away and doing acrobatics at the same time...Ha, that is the first time I have ever been accused of trying to prove how "down to earth" I am by nursing a toddler..!

Anyway, sorry I don't find big agri to be the most ethical business. I imagine on a personal level the people who work for companies like monsanto are good people. In fact I know they are because I am related to one. You are trying to feed your family. Just don't sit here and tell me I am wrong because you are personally offended that I take issue with the copious pesticide use/chemical fertilizer (all of which are running into the water that drains into the ocean and destroying life there as one example of the hidden costs of big agri) GMO crops and CAFOs..Sorry if that doesn't jive with you because it is your industry, I can understand the defensiveness though. It is VERY personal to you. Just because you do that for a living doesn't mean it isn't hurting the eco-system or is good for people in the long run or that there aren't better more sustainable options for A LOT of people (not everyone).

The big agri industry would have us believe a tomato is a tomato is a tomato and what we are learning every day is that is simply not true.
I can see this devolving into the exact same BS the HUGE thread about "why organics" turned into...This was primarily about my problems finding organic feed locally not about organics in general. I don't have time to do the exact same argument as the other thread, I'm just trying to win my mommy points by taking care of my nursling

You tell me not to say that you are wrong....but that is exactly what you are doing to us. I have never said someone wanting to only use organic is wrong....that is their personal choice. Why not tell me what you and your husband do for a living? How would you feel if at every turn people who don't have a clue were bashing not only how you make your living, but your lifestyle as well. Because farming is very much a lifestyle as well as how we make our living. We live it 365/24/7.

As to the amounts of pesticides and chemical fetilizer being used.....we use less now than in a very long time.

Believe what you will about us, but no one cares more for this planet than 99.9% of the farmers who work their butts off to feed you.

Sorry but until you have personal experience and not just your books and articles to rely on I don't and won't put much stock in what you have to say.

Your breast-feeding comment had as much to do with your original question as your slamming agriculture.

 

[Paganrose]

Have you thought about mixing your own feed?
I feed by birds a homemixed non gmo feed. I buy oats, barley, sunflowers, and occasionaly wheat from my co-op all non GMO crops. I then buy organic corn from my nieghbor, and some conventionaly grown roasted soy from an amish nieghbor. I feed very little corn and soy. I do get a vitamin mix from my co-op, and the birds get kitchen and garden scraps and free range about my acre.

Winter feed costs for 20 chickens, 4 duck and 2 geese averaged about $35 to $40 a month including grit and osytershell, Where as conventional chicken feed would have cost me $60, organic twice as much, not including osytershell or grit.
http://www.lionsgrip.com/recipes.html
Great site on mixing feed

 

[mamabahre]

Quote:
hmm I have thought about it but I find it incredibly intimidating TBH...It seems like it is very hard to get the right mix and nutrient content for the chickies...It's scary!

As far as living a lie, I guess I'll keep living the "lie" them because I find that every little bit counts but I guess some people have an all or nothing type attitude..I can see this thread is going no where fast so I think this will be my last post about this topic specifically...

Katy you are incredibly insulting. For my part I apologize for disliking the industry that supports your family. Like I said it must be threatening and upsetting. Nothing I say will convince you that your profession has some major issues in a larger scale than what you do individually and it is not sustainable. I feel sorry for you..

Insulting a breastfeeding mother for that is so wrong on so many levels. It hurts me deeply and I can't say why, maybe because it is hard enough to nurse a toddler in this country as it is. I don't get how you equate the two but if you are implying that I care about what my daughter eats then I guess you are right. I want her to eat as well as possible. No GMOs, no pesticides (or as few as possible) no chemical fertilizers, LOCAL LOCAL LOCAL...Our own backyard if possible and breastmilk is by far one of the best "foods" she can have (yes even at this age for those of you who are disgusted). That carries over into our daily loves and all the products we use. Ever heard of yurt living? my family is getting there. No plastics, no chemical cleaners, no chemical personal products, it is an uphill battle but we get there every day..THIS IS A LIFESTYLE. What I imagine you are really saying is I am trying to brag about what a super awesome hippie I am or something? Yeah because breastfeeding a toddler who bites/pinches/pulls etc does backflips is just so I can get my hippie street cred...You caught me! I care about what I eat...what a hippie I am!

You are very sensitive I can see and frankly I just don't care about your opinion anymore, you lost me with the PERSONAL attacks on me breastfeeding my kid....I would expect more from someone who claimed to breastfeed 3 children and I find it disgusting.

Oh, FYI Katy, if and when the bleep hits the fan and we are all scrambling trying to figure out how to live without something like OIL as a means for producing goods such as food you can come join us locavores who will be alright because our agricultural system is not dependent on petro-chemicals at every single point of production!

 

[Katy]

I am done with this thread. We won't need you, but you may find out you need us a lot more than you'd like to believe.

Your mind sadly is made up and someday you'll find out that neither of us was probably 100% right. I can admit that...can you?

ETA: I did not attack you for breast-feeding.....I think every child would benefit from being breastfed. I commented on it becasue it was such an out-of-left-field comment to make and seemed very out of place.

.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Not to change the subject but

Cargill bought the animal feed and nutrition business of Agway in March 04.

Those who have switched to mixing your own feed, have you seen any change in growth/laying etc.?

I always have from 50-100 chickens but we have a backyard chicken meetup group here with over 200 members some of which only have 2-4 birds but we're toying with the idea of going in together and buying organic by the pallet. Just trying to work out the logistics.
You could see if you could get together with other poultry people in your area and buy together.

 

[Cindy in PA]

There is definitely good on both sides. Are we really organic because we cut all our own wood for our stove, yipee!!!!!!! Just kidding, but we do that. Not sure it makes you organic, old world or a hick maybe. There is no way we can feed everyone with organic or low input, but that is because there are too many people!!! You don't even want to hear my 21 yo son's view on that!! We all can do something if we want to even if we use chemicals or whatever.