Is E. coli opportunistic in chickens?

[alinas2010]

LOL The others always think one is getting some special.

I'm so glad she's improving!
Yes, I would give a probiotic. You can use purchased probiotics or give a little plain high quality yogurt (about 1Tablespoon daily).

Some observe a withdrawal period, others don't. A lot depends on how and who may be using the eggs. But for Amoxicillin toss the eggs for 14 days if you wish.

Now, for follow-up, she may do well for how long, it's hard to know.
Did you notice if she seemed to have fluid in the abdomen too? Bloat or fluid? If so, then you may want to read up on giving a Detox. @coach723 has found it to be helpful in certain instances when hens are having trouble. Of course this is not a cure - it's just another "something" that can be tried as part of supportive care and comfort. I have personally not tried the detox, I haven't had a sick hen in a while, but I would try it when the times comes if I've accessed and thought it would be a benefit.

Here's a link to where she's talking about it, but if you search for "detox" and her username, you'll find numerous posts with her sharing her thoughts. https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...ove-now-laid-egg.1446105/page-4#post-24045478

Unfortunately, she does have a bloated abdomen. I wouldn’t describe it as squishy, it seems a bit firmer. It’s been that way for about the past year now. That is one of the reasons I thought her reproductive issues had caught up with her finally. That and her lack of eggs. Her laying became more and more infrequent as the year went on. And when she did lay the eggs were very abnormal - they are very large, cracked and mended, wrinkled, misshapen and soft at times. I feel very bad for her. I will try the detox and offer any other comfort for her that I can. Would you try the detox before you would try draining the abdomen? I don’t really know if anything would drain given the firmness, is it worth trying?

 

[coach723]

I no longer try to drain my birds. If it's fluid, then it will usually recur, so a temporary fix at best. And some risks involved. Many do it successfully however. If it's not fluid then it won't drain. When I know it's fluid I have had some birds respond to the detox, it just really depends on the underlying cause, which is often hard to know for sure. I had an hen at one time that I would do the detox on, she would be good for a while, and then fluid would build up again. I continued with periodic detox until it no longer gave her any relief, then I euthanized. In her case it was cancer. When it's very firm, sometimes the cause is salpingitis also, there won't always be lash material passed, it will just build up inside. Sadly, it's often not known for sure until necropsy.
I did find this article addressing treating e. coli, might be helpful in the future:
https://www.val-co.com/ecoli/
I often use amoxicillin first, and only switch to something else if it's not effective for whatever I'm trying to treat.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Unfortunately, she does have a bloated abdomen. I wouldn’t describe it as squishy, it seems a bit firmer. It’s been that way for about the past year now. That is one of the reasons I thought her reproductive issues had caught up with her finally. That and her lack of eggs. Her laying became more and more infrequent as the year went on. And when she did lay the eggs were very abnormal - they are very large, cracked and mended, wrinkled, misshapen and soft at times. I feel very bad for her. I will try the detox and offer any other comfort for her that I can. Would you try the detox before you would try draining the abdomen? I don’t really know if anything would drain given the firmness, is it worth trying?

For me, yes, I would try detox before draining, but as mentioned, sometimes bloat is not caused by fluid so it may not help.

 

[alinas2010]

I no longer try to drain my birds. If it's fluid, then it will usually recur, so a temporary fix at best. And some risks involved. Many do it successfully however. If it's not fluid then it won't drain. When I know it's fluid I have had some birds respond to the detox, it just really depends on the underlying cause, which is often hard to know for sure. I had an hen at one time that I would do the detox on, she would be good for a while, and then fluid would build up again. I continued with periodic detox until it no longer gave her any relief, then I euthanized. In her case it was cancer. When it's very firm, sometimes the cause is salpingitis also, there won't always be lash material passed, it will just build up inside. Sadly, it's often not known for sure until necropsy.
I did find this article addressing treating e. coli, might be helpful in the future:
https://www.val-co.com/ecoli/
I often use amoxicillin first, and only switch to something else if it's not effective for whatever I'm trying to treat.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. And for sharing the E. coli article. Sounds like I really will not know what is causing her issues until she passes, then. But I’ll do the best I can for her until then. I ordered the detox earlier today and am hopeful it could offer some comfort. I see that you give 4 mLs a day for 7 days, do you give it with a syringe directly into the beak? How do you avoid aspiration? Purely out of complete curiosity, what lead you to try this with your birds?

For me, yes, I would try detox before draining, but as mentioned, sometimes bloat is not caused by fluid so it may not help.

I will try the detox, I hope it arrives quickly. Ultimately I will probably avoid draining after reading through you and coach723’s advice and experiences.

It saddens me that there isn’t really a cure for what all of our hens have gone through, maybe someday there will be.

 

[coach723]

I do give it directly, orally. I use an oral syringe and just take my time, go slowly, let them swallow often. I've never had much problem so it must taste fine to them. I can't remember exactly what my original source was, I was doing a lot of research into herbal remedies, and since ascites is usually the liver leaking (albeit from other underlying reasons usually) it seemed like a reasonable thing to try things that support the liver. And many herbals don't really have downsides or major side effects, so figured it was worth trying. I do always bring it to room temperature before giving it since they are a sick bird.
This link also explains how to safely administer medications orally, might help:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...dications-to-all-poultry-and-waterfowl.73335/

 

[alinas2010]

I do give it directly, orally. I use an oral syringe and just take my time, go slowly, let them swallow often. I've never had much problem so it must taste fine to them. I can't remember exactly what my original source was, I was doing a lot of research into herbal remedies, and since ascites is usually the liver leaking (albeit from other underlying reasons usually) it seemed like a reasonable thing to try things that support the liver. And many herbals don't really have downsides or major side effects, so figured it was worth trying. I do always bring it to room temperature before giving it since they are a sick bird.
This link also explains how to safely administer medications orally, might help:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...dications-to-all-poultry-and-waterfowl.73335/

Thank you. I really appreciate you sharing. In your opinion, do you think the detox will help with inflammation? I’d like to give her something for inflammation but idk what yet. I’ve been trying to do some research into what else I can do to help her but I haven’t found much truly credible information about supportive treatment yet. Still looking. I did see where a recommendation was to switch the hen to a corn only diet to dissuade laying…that seems not healthy ? Besides cutting out treats what other diet changes could help do you think? She’s on layer pellets right now.

 

[coach723]

I would not do a corn diet. Corn is carbs (sugar) which is only going to cause more problems, fatty liver, inflammation, etc. In general, fed regularly, it contributes to all kinds of illness in chickens. (Yes, they love it. Look at it like "candy corn". Would you give candy to your toddler every day?? Not healthy! I call scratch "chicken crack".) If she's already having liver issues, that will only make it worse.
Turmeric and astragalus have natural anti inflammatory properties if you want to do more natural. Prescription-wise meloxicam is usually the preferred medication for poultry for inflammation.
If she isn't laying then putting her on an all flock or flock raiser type feed might be better, she doesn't need the extra calcium in layer feed if she's not laying, too much can cause kidney issues. As far as stopping laying, the only real way to do that is to reduce the hours of daylight she's exposed to (often done with egg binding etc. to let the system rest until recovered, takes time and not permanent) or to have a hormonal implant (Suprelorin is one) to stop them laying. That's relatively expensive and has to be redone periodically.
The detox isn't going to hurt anything, whether it works or not. I would go ahead and try. By the end of a week, you should be able to tell a difference, if it helps. Even if it doesn't, it won't do any damage.
Having said all that, if it's cancer, then supportive care is really all you can do. If it's infection like salpingitis, then antibiotics can sometimes buy them time, but most of them eventually succumb, it's very resistant to treatment. Likewise if it's internal laying, the antibiotics can give them time, but it often recurs since the problem still exists and persists. The implant can stop the laying, but whatever matter is inside will still be there, and it's prime for bacterial growth.
I have seen where some have had surgery done to remove all that matter, along with placing an implant. That is pretty expensive, and honestly, risky. If that were something you wanted to consider you would really need to find a good avian veterinarian with experience with it.

 

[alinas2010]

I would not do a corn diet. Corn is carbs (sugar) which is only going to cause more problems, fatty liver, inflammation, etc. In general, fed regularly, it contributes to all kinds of illness in chickens. (Yes, they love it. Look at it like "candy corn". Would you give candy to your toddler every day?? Not healthy! I call scratch "chicken crack".) If she's already having liver issues, that will only make it worse.
Turmeric and astragalus have natural anti inflammatory properties if you want to do more natural. Prescription-wise meloxicam is usually the preferred medication for poultry for inflammation.
If she isn't laying then putting her on an all flock or flock raiser type feed might be better, she doesn't need the extra calcium in layer feed if she's not laying, too much can cause kidney issues. As far as stopping laying, the only real way to do that is to reduce the hours of daylight she's exposed to (often done with egg binding etc. to let the system rest until recovered, takes time and not permanent) or to have a hormonal implant (Suprelorin is one) to stop them laying. That's relatively expensive and has to be redone periodically.
The detox isn't going to hurt anything, whether it works or not. I would go ahead and try. By the end of a week, you should be able to tell a difference, if it helps. Even if it doesn't, it won't do any damage.
Having said all that, if it's cancer, then supportive care is really all you can do. If it's infection like salpingitis, then antibiotics can sometimes buy them time, but most of them eventually succumb, it's very resistant to treatment. Likewise if it's internal laying, the antibiotics can give them time, but it often recurs since the problem still exists and persists. The implant can stop the laying, but whatever matter is inside will still be there, and it's prime for bacterial growth.
I have seen where some have had surgery done to remove all that matter, along with placing an implant. That is pretty expensive, and honestly, risky. If that were something you wanted to consider you would really need to find a good avian veterinarian with experience with it.

Yes! That is what I was thinking about corn! I thought, hmm how unhealthy, maybe there is something I don’t know, though. I think I have turmeric, I will sprinkle some on her mash in the morning. Perhaps even better, I’ll make a mash out of all flock for her in the mornings and put turmeric in it, can’t hurt. Once the detox arrives I’ll start it promptly and let you both know if it helps.

I likely won’t be seeking vet care for this hen, so I’m left with what I have on hand to help her. I do have a lot of Rimadyl, I’ve seen that you can give that to chickens for pain, do you think it could help with discomfort and inflammation?

I do have two vets here that I know see chickens and that given the right circumstances maybe I would consider talking to them about the implant, I’m just not sure I’d do it for this case, nor am I sure either vet would even agree to it. So it is probably a moot point anyways.

 

[coach723]

Carprofen (Rimadyl) can be used (It's an NSAID). Plumbs Veterinary Drug Handbook gives the oral dose for birds as 2 mg/kg of body weight every 8 - 24 hours. It does have some drug interactions, one I found said it can cause higher serum levels of amoxicillin. I will link to one sight that lists some interactions, you can search for more. So I wouldn't use it until you finish your amoxicillin.
https://poultrydvm.com/drugs/carprofen

 

[alinas2010]

Carprofen (Rimadyl) can be used (It's an NSAID). Plumbs Veterinary Drug Handbook gives the oral dose for birds as 2 mg/kg of body weight every 8 - 24 hours. It does have some drug interactions, one I found said it can cause higher serum levels of amoxicillin. I will link to one sight that lists some interactions, you can search for more. So I wouldn't use it until you finish your amoxicillin.
https://poultrydvm.com/drugs/carprofen

Thank you. I really truly appreciate your help so much. I will wait until she finishes the amoxicillin.