Is this diet OK for Chickens?

[DorothyH]

Below find a link about the protein content of soaked or sprouted seeds. I used sprouted barley in my search because it is by far the most soaked or sprouted grain and there is more information about the protein content of sprouted barley, however other grains will show a similar protein profile when sprouted and repeatedly washed. As the link mentions the reason for a 20% increase in barley protein is not a result of the sprouting process but a result of the washing or spangling process to which sprouted barley is subjected. This is the same process used in the manufacture of wort in preparation for brewing beer. In other words the soaking, sprouting, and repeated washings that sprouted barley is subjected, leaches out enough food energy in the form of starch and sugars that the remaining protein represents a much larger percentage of the remaining food energy, but it in no way represents an increase in total food energy or protein content.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprouting

Crude Protein and Crude Fibre changes in Barley Sprouted over a 7-day period

​

Crude Protein (% of DM)​

Crude Fibre (% of DM)​

Original seed 12.7% 5.4%
Day 1 12.7% 5.6%
Day 2 13.0% 5.9%
Day 3 13.6% 5.8%
Day 4 13.4% 7.4%
Day 5 13.9% 9.7%
Day 6 14.0% 10.8%
Day 7 15.5% 14.1%
Source: Cuddeford (1989), based on data obtained by Peer and Leeson (1985).
Increase of protein is not due to new protein being manufactured by the germination process but by the washing out of starch and conversion to fiber -- increasing the relative proportion of protein.
Increases in Essential Fatty Acids

I'm not sure exactly why you would want to know the exact protein levels of sprouts - but like most things you research you will find differences on different internet sites and now you've convinced me to waste time looking things up again. Take for instance the following sites that say as much as 35% for alfalfa and and brocolli sprouts:

http://www.healthyeatingadvisor.com/sprouts.html

Most of the sites I went to mentioned higher levels of protein and many at or close to 30% - but that wasn't my point!!!!!
The point was that no matter how much you get from EVEN sprouting your seeds that's enough. I don't understand what your point is.

 

[chickengeorgeto]

I am not interested in the protein content I merely asked you for a reference for the increased protein content. If that offends you please accept my apology.

 

[DorothyH]

Thank you. There is nothing confusing in your description of the butter making process, so there is no reason for you to needlessly apologize. I am well versed in the first person singular on the process of making butter or yogurt from raw milk, milk that I extracted or helped extract with my own hands and then set aside for the cream to rise to the top and sour. After churning the liquid left behind is known as butter milk, or more precisely butter-less milk. Sour cream butter or real butter is impossible to buy in American Grocery stores today. The only thing available is sweet creamery butter. If you want to enjoy the good life you must go to Canada to get a taste of real butter.

In a 1922 issue of the magazine Leghorn World there are adds advertising the benefits of powdered buttermilk sold in 50# sacks for baby chick feed. I can not recommend buttermilk enough for feeding and watering baby chickens. Google these adds, you will find them at the Perdue University poultry science web sight. I know that the dehydrated milk had been churned because if it had not been churned the butter fat in the chick food would go rancid.

In the Roaring 1920s Calvin Coolidge won election to the presidentcy on the slogan, "A car in every garage, and two chickens in every pot." I guess what we as a nation must decide now is do we wish to continue to feed Americans, and make everyone's life better by feeding them, or do we want to create a society like the one that exists say in Somalia, a society based on want, violence, death, and Persecution?

I'm sorry for needlessly apologizing.

...I was directing that apology to Circe who didn't seem to have as much experience with fermentation who was the one who asked what fermented whey was. I was apologizing because for someone like me when I was learning at the beginning it was confusing as I imagined I might be confusing to someone else without experience. There's cultured buttermilk and traditional buttermilk and now you say butter-less milk and then sour cream butter vs. real butter and then sweet creamery butter - all those similar words can be quite confusing to a beginner.

That's fascinating about the powdered buttermilk sold in a 1922 issue of a magazine. Buttermilk for chicks - I will keep that firmly in mind! Thanks for that info. So true what you say about us having to decide what kind of society we want to create. It scares me terribly when the government makes it impossible for small farmers to sell me their natural real whole foods. It's Orwellian and makes me shiver that I can no longer buy raw almonds for instance. I was told that in Canada it was illegal to raise your own cow and drink the milk from it raw in your own yard. That's even more extreme and bizarre than raw milk being illegal to buy and sell - but seems to be where we are headed too. It wouldn't surprise me if soon none of us were able to source any food that isn't gmo and pasteurized.

For now at least I have good eggs!

 

[DorothyH]

I am not interested in the protein content I merely asked you for a reference for the increased protein content. If that offends you please accept my apology.

No - it doesn't offend me at all - just tires me.

lol

Just about any resource I went to over the years said that sprouting increases protein content. Maybe it's from converting other nutrients into protein (makes sense) - but still more protein per calorie. Sprouting is a little like farming though - you are growing your food - so it is possible that there can be more of everything in general when you grow something from the seed.

Again - why is this of interest to you? To what purpose are you desiring more protein content? Convince me to go to the trouble of delineating raw vs. sprouts in terms of protein and then I will spend the energy to do so.

For me the main purpose of sprouting is to get rid of the enzyme inhibitiors and to increase life force and to keep the essential fatty acids from getting denatured and more easily digestible etc. No matter how much or little protein is in seeds either sprouted or not sprouted is obviously to me too little based upon results with my chickens.

 

[circesfire]

Dorothy, thank you for your time in responding. I am new to this and it is confusing but your descriptions make a lot of sense. Funny how this chicken journey is going. Started off with getting chickens as a useful pet and told myself I wouldn't get attached and wouldn't take them to the vet if they got sick because it didn't make financial success. Then I decided I would raise them on all organic chick starter and scratch and only all natural treats. Next, I decided that I should stockpile every possible medication I might need and called a vet to ensure I knew of someone who treated chickens. Now I'm thinking I need to improve their diet. First day I have off work in going to trek the 60 miles to whole foods and buy a bunch of seeds for them to try

 

[DorothyH]

Dorothy, thank you for your time in responding. I am new to this and it is confusing but your descriptions make a lot of sense. Funny how this chicken journey is going. Started off with getting chickens as a useful pet and told myself I wouldn't get attached and wouldn't take them to the vet if they got sick because it didn't make financial success. Then I decided I would raise them on all organic chick starter and scratch and only all natural treats. Next, I decided that I should stockpile every possible medication I might need and called a vet to ensure I knew of someone who treated chickens. Now I'm thinking I need to improve their diet. First day I have off work in going to trek the 60 miles to whole foods and buy a bunch of seeds for them to try

You're welcome Circe. Figuring things out and researching in books and on the internet and then doing all the experimentation took a lot of time but was really worth the effort but the trick for me is to keep focused or I can get so easily sidetracked and hours later pull myself up from some obscure search on one tiny aspect. It probably took me a hundred hours for instance just to understand the difference between cultured buttermilk and traditional buttermilk for instance.

This thread is quite a detour from why I joined the forum - to try to pick other people's brains on hatching - but it's only right and proper for me to try to be reciprocal and share about things that I know a little something about too so I'm very happy if I'm being of use to you. If it's actually useful I will also try to retrace steps - but honestly I hope that it's not useful lol. I do understand that what I'm saying is radical so I "should" have at least some resources, but as I'm not writing a book or need to convince anyone but myself I just keep the conclusions that I came to from enough sources over decades researching diet in my brain and not where I got that information as my little brain would explode if I tried to do that. I'd need an upgrade. Until I gain credibility the best I can do is give suggestions based upon my own learning and experience that others can try out for themselves if they care to. Believe it or not just having clear definitions can save tons of time.
Now for the friendly stuff

When I first wanted to get chickens my husband told me he would go for it on a number of conditions. 1. No vets. That condition was ok because I am into holistic stuff enough that I don't even go to the doctor myself and I don't bring my beloved doggies to vets either - we all stay healthier that way.

The diet and colloidal silver seems to do more than even the best vet would be able to do for the chickens turns out. Luckily he didn't make "cheap food" one of the criteria! hee hee. 2. I had to get adult birds so I wouldn't imprint myself on them and follow them around the yard and never want to to do anything else. 3. They had to be UGLY birds and not some adorable little silkie that I would be worried about and devastated if some hawk came and picked off. 4. I had to pick ones that would be as sturdy as possible so that I wouldn't be crying. 5. If he didn't like them for any reason being in the yard he had veto power and I'd have to give them away. 6. I was to get as few as possible to start. 6. Even if ugly adults I was NOT to be out there petting the chickens - NO PETTING!

Fast forward and he built a big coop for more chickens and a cool self-watering system and cuddles with them more than I ever would and just suggested that I get an incubator so that I can raise and feed the ducks that we want to get from as early as possible and if I wanted to experiment I could get some bantam silver polish eggs so that we could have a PET chicken that was just too cute to pass up. HA! He's been a member here for years and I just joined. I had to put my foot down at the bantam polish as a separate pet because I NOW have to be the reasonable one when it comes to the chickens! Those birdies sure have a way of winning their way into your heart and trashing all the "rules". !

I apologize for getting you into our mania and now you are going to drive 60 miles. That's just too much! Isn't there any place closer for you?

If you're not careful you will be soon raising bugs for your chickens (been there and done that - well - honestly - still doing that).

Please keep me posted how it goes for you!

 

[chickengeorgeto]

.... So true what you say about us having to decide what kind of society we want to create. It scares me terribly when the government makes it impossible for small farmers to sell me their natural real whole foods. It's Orwellian and makes me shiver that I can no longer buy raw almonds for instance. I was told that in Canada it was illegal to raise your own cow and drink the milk from it raw in your own yard. That's even more extreme and bizarre than raw milk being illegal to buy and sell - but seems to be where we are headed too. It wouldn't surprise me if soon none of us were able to source any food that isn't gmo and pasteurized.

For everyone like yourself there are one or maybe a dozen who wish to protect us from ourselves. Only by capturing the power of the state and turning its power loose on the average citizen can people like that justify their existence. The proper name for it is "Rent Seeking Behavior." Google it.

 

[SavageDestiny]

Dorothy can I just say you have been a blessing in this thread! I am looking to start keeping chickens, but did not want to use premade feed. I make all my dogs' food and find my dogs are much healthier that way! You seem to really know your stuff. I want my birds to be as healthy as possible and I too believe in a holistic approach.

Do you ever ferment your grain mix? I think fermenting sounds like it has a whole lot of benefits, but it seems like I can only find people fermenting layer/grower feed mixed with whole grains.

Also, how exactly would one go about making whey? Could I make it out of raw, unprocessed goat milk?

 

[DorothyH]

For everyone like yourself there are one or maybe a dozen who wish to protect us from ourselves. Only by capturing the power of the state and turning its power loose on the average citizen can people like that justify their existence. The proper name for it is "Rent Seeking Behavior." Google it.

Well George (if it's ok to call you that) - you couldn't possibly hit the nail any straighter on the head than that!

 

[DorothyH]

Dorothy can I just say you have been a blessing in this thread! I am looking to start keeping chickens, but did not want to use premade feed. I make all my dogs' food and find my dogs are much healthier that way! You seem to really know your stuff. I want my birds to be as healthy as possible and I too believe in a holistic approach.

Do you ever ferment your grain mix? I think fermenting sounds like it has a whole lot of benefits, but it seems like I can only find people fermenting layer/grower feed mixed with whole grains.

Also, how exactly would one go about making whey? Could I make it out of raw, unprocessed goat milk?

I'm so glad this has been useful to you!

I don't ferment grains for the chickens. I have found it hard to make sure I'm fermenting the right thing usually with grains and generally, I like the idea of GROWING seeds a little in order to create more enzymatic activity (aka life force). I've tasted too many fermented grain concoctions meant for even human consumption that were "off". Fermenting regular chicken feed seems insane to me. There are almost always chemicalized vitamin mixtures in there and they are often treated as a whole with high heat or are at least ground up making the fats break down badly and who knows what kinds of bacteria would be growing already on such a product. Yikes! I won't even ferment organic whole grains let alone perhaps old, ground up, highly heated, additive ridden chicken feed! I wouldn't ferment anything but raw natural foods myself.

I keep the ferments for the chickens to the ferments that I myself would eat. My chickens love fermented dairy and even kombucha scobies - which is a very nice use for the extras. They eat lots of fermented things in the yard as well. Fruits that naturally are fermenting and things that lie around fermenting and I feed them every second day what is called "high meat". I open a 2 pound or so package of ground up whole raw grass-fed cow and give them half and the other half I mix periodically to keep all of it exposed to oxygen so that the good bacteria in/on the meat can grow and provide excellent gut bacteria for the chickens and feed that on the second day.

Whey is the by-product of making cheese and can be a by-product of making yogurt as well. The softer the cheese the less whey has been removed. I haven't worked with goat milk but of course you can get whey out of raw goat milk! I would suggest picking what kind of cheese you might want to try making from your goat milk and using the leftover whey for the chickens but if you are going to use the milk only for the whey - I would suggest not going through the trouble of siphoning off all the whey and just fermenting the milk in the easiest way for you and then feeding it whole to your chickens. That way they will get some good dairy bacteria, carbs and other good stuff from the whole fermented milk as well. Chickens tend not to be very picky about the kind of cheese they eat. lol. If it's fermented dairy that isn't too sour you'd have strange chickens indeed that wouldn't gobble it up. Goat milk tends to be naturally homogenized so the chickens would also get a nice good source of fat as well with the whole milk being used.

It's a bit of a study to learn to make these things but once you get it down - you got it! There are lots of great sources on-line on how to make cheese. It's really a lot of fun and is quite empowering. Some of the hard cheeses are not so easy because they need exactly the right temps and only particular strains of bacteria - but there are some simple softer and younger cheeses you can try. With goat there is chevre and feta for instance. YUM! I'm jealous actually. I'm thinking of getting a couple of tiny goats for my little suburban yard one day the animals and the milk are so wonderful to have. What I really want is my own fermented butter again. Oh - that was heaven!

You are getting into chickens and into raw fermented dairy. You are going to have a grand time! It was like a whole new world opening up learning about those two things for us.