Is this diet OK for Chickens?

[SavageDestiny]

Sounds like you are going to have a nice place to move to for your sustainability project after construction! That's nice that you will be going to be with your Mom.

Your big dogs do eat more than my little ones, but still little considering their size. Big dogs are generally so much more expensive to feed all raw so at this point I would only get a large dog if it were working and keeping it's keep. I found it very easy to switch any dog over to all raw quickly (can't drive or open refrigerators!

) - even all the sick rescues I took care of seemed to greatly prefer raw food. I love Ziwi Peak because it's grass-fed and easy and the feral cats as well as the dogs do well on it - but not cheap.

Variety is the spice of life. I just think it's important for myself to understand the WHY accurately of including a food especially when determining the percentage. Fermented grains are a side food, a treat, whereas I see sprouts as something that can be the foundation of a chicken diet. The chickens need only a limited amount of the fairly empty carbs of the grains nd don't need that much of bacteria in the liquid if they aren't given antibiotics to destroy their gut bacteria -- except of course if you are using the bacteria as a protein source. If the diet is very low in concentrated protein fermenting just about any raw food could make the difference between protein starvation or not. Fermenting grains takes a great deal more effort than sprouting so I personally see no upside to fermenting in my regime as compared to other ferments it seems like a lot of work for relatively little gain .... again .... in comparison. On the other hand getting the sprouting of grains wrong is more likely and one bad batch of ferment can do a good deal of harm. It seems a better use of my time and resources to add the variety by fermenting dairy or meat or kombucha or other things than to ferment grains because the grains I can grow to make powerhouses of enzymes and protein in themselves and the chickens love the grains that way. The grains themselves will lose something by fermenting whereas the other ferments like dairy and meat lose nothing in the process of fermentation. I at present need things to be pretty easy with the chickens. Fermenting the meat and giving them other ferments that I make for the human flock is the easiest for me and in my view the best for the chickens too. I'm always evaluating risk vs reward and factoring in time and effort and expense. I guess everyone has to do that for themselves in their own situations.

Just food for thought - my way of thinking about fermented grains - just in case it's useful to you.

You know - with the fish that's so far away that I haven't gotten to the point where I've researched food for them much. I will be doing lots more black soldier fly composting this spring so I will have lots of good bugs if I do put in bug eating fish. I didn't know it had to be mixed with anything. I'm going to put your suggestion in a little notebook about the gelatin so that I remember it for when I do eventually maybe get fish going. I know for certain the same way I don't buy dog, cat, chicken food or even prepared food for my bugs! I would never want to buy fish food! If you feed things that are questionable lower down on the food chain they will just get more concentrated as they move up to the top of the food chain - meaning me!

I've never done anything with gelatin. I'm going to have to look up what it is and how to use it. I was thinking with tiny fish I could freeze home-grown bugs, put them in my dehydrator, then powder them and sprinkle them. I don't want big fish - just tiny fish to feed the animals. Is there a reason that wouldn't work? Making sure that I have a good food source is something I do before getting any animal so this will definitely have to be worked out before any fish arrive. Raising the fish would be my way of increasing variety and hopefully being able to cut down on the meat and saving money there. If I can get enough black soldier flies to feed the chickens what they want of those directly that would really help too! Then if there were extra I could feed them to fish and give the chickens/ducks variety that way too. I also thought that it might be lots of fun for the ducks to dive for fish. Seems like it would be such a natural and fun thing for them and entertaining to watch.

Btw - I think it's great that you will be starting with 4 hens. When I had just a few it was very different than having 9 even. Their intensity seems to go up exponentially when you hit a certain number. Learning with a few makes things relaxed and easier. Also, doing special things for just a few in the kitchen is also much easier. It's smart I think to start your chicken process in the city before the country. My suggestion would be to get good laying hens that are best suited to your natural environment. For instance - if I had gotten 3 hens that didn't do well in the heat at the beginning I might not be here talking to you now as the whole thing might have felt and ended quite differently.

I can hear the chickens in the coop - I'm late letting them out - so just HAVE TO stop typing now.

Oh no, I love hearing your thoughts on fermentation! Learning is never a bad thing. I'm finding that in the world of making your own chicken feed, everyone seems to have a slightly different opinion, just like in raw dog food! So I'll have to do the same thing I did with my dogs, experiment and find out what works best for my little flock. You have been a huge help teaching me about basic chicken nutritional needs though! I honestly felt a little lost until I found this thread and a Facebook group about fodder.

The gelatin acts as a binder for fish food, since fish don't do well with powder. Powder just is too small for anything but fry. Dehydrated or freeze dried foods are also not all that great for fish, since once they eat the item it expands in the stomach and can cause swim bladder issues. Freeze drying and dehydration also cause some nutrient loss, although small. I think if you were raising the fish in an outdoor pond, insectivores could do quite well eating a lot of bugs naturally that land on the pond. You can also raise blackworms, glassworms, brine shrimp, wingless fruit flies, those soldier flies, etc. quite easily to feed the fish. I found it easier to blend up the bugs and mix with gelatin to feed, but if you raised a variety of fishie food items you could just feed them fresh and alive for your fish to snatch out of the water.

I too think starting with a few hens is a good idea, and I'm hoping we can bribe the landlord with the promise of fresh eggs. He's generally good about letting us do what we want as long as we don't destroy anything though- it's hard to find a place to rent with a Pit Bull, for instance!

 

[myfivegirls]

Wow - now THAT'S SPECIFIC!

Where do you get your fish meal? Is it wild caught and unheated?

Flax is awful to add to a sprout mix because it's so gelatinous and organic whole winter wheat isn't bad to add some I think and I'm confused as to why such a limited variety of seeds to sprout. Whole peas btw are one of the hardest sproutable to source. Bird seed - they don't make that organic do they? Most bird seed mixes wouldn't be sproutable would they? Chickens much prefer the larger seeds to small seeds I find but I occasionally make them some small seed sprouts just for the nutritional variety. The alfalfa pellets are hard to get organic and are used for a source of greens and carotenoids. I prefer to grow greens in my garden and I buy a bigger container of baby greens lettuce than I need wholesale and throw them the rest as soon as it's a little too tired for my snobby taste - they love that.

I guess it all depends on how many chickens you have and what your shopping situation is. Down the road from us is Whole Foods and Costco. I find it easiest and best for my husband just to buy a bag of different seeds each time he shops and mix it into the seed jar and for the chickens to get greens from our fresh raw organic sources that we already have for us to eat and to buy some larger quantities of produce at Costco when we shop there for ourselves. I no longer buy seaweeds in general because of Fukishima - but that's me - but even then I wouldn't feed just kelp because alone it has enough arsenic to be a problem but when mixed with other seaweeds it is no problem at all..... supposedly from my research into human nutrition over the years.

That looks like very little protein to me. Good thing the chickens are getting scraps. Remember - all those feeding guides are designed for chickens to lay well for just 2 years.

In short - doing that kind of measuring and mixing would make me crazy! I also doubt if it's necessary or even beneficial. It seems so rigid that variety is sacrificed. Again though - I have nonly 9 backyard chickens. Doing something like that I guess might be necessary for a larger flock. You can't feed back eggshells and egg whites and giving all sorts of treats to a big flock all the time. I'm constantly out there feeding yummies. Yesterday they got half a dozen persimmons that were just a little too ripe for me for instance.

The things that I think you really MUST get enough of every day are the meat/bugs/whey etc. for concentrated protein and some methionine - because that's the thing that if you don't have enough of will stop their laying on a dime I've found once they are older.

As far as the whey amount to buy issue goes - you didn't say how many chickens you have so I can't tell you - but I still think that starting with 1/1/6 - 1/8 of a teaspoon is a good place to start. The thing is that all your hens are so young that you might not see the results until later. Any birds that are not laying don't really need the whey or herbs. I haven't done any scientific studies - just some pseudo-scientific studies on my own chickens - so the best I can suggest is that you need to do your own experiments as well. Most people will say they know, when they actually do not really know. The most I can do is guess. Your pens might be filled with bugs and grass or might not. It's all too individual. You will know if they are getting enough protein and methionine and a good enough diet if they CONTINUE to lay even when older. With the good diet that they have been early in life and without added toxins, as they get older and stop laying you "should" be able to up the protein and supplements to get them laying again. But remember - I feed them almost 100% raw foods. I also think that makes a big difference. There is no added stress of AGE's and lack of enzymes in the food I give them. I think that's pretty important personally and will always be a factor.

Does that help? This is so hard and I'm being so wordy trying to get my thoughts across.

Yes, I have more than 9 chickens, as I average abt 16 eggs a day. But, I don't know how many laying hens/pullets I have, and some don't lay every day. So, I'd estimate that I have at least 20-25 hens/pullets that are egg laying age.

But, I'm not planning on keeping them for their own life span, and the Red Stars, Dominiques & Rhode Island Red I have currently (who were raised on commercial feed) will be due for the pot in the fall. My only hope is the ones that have been fed a better diet from the time they hatch will have a longer lay of rate. I've already seen an increase in vitality, foraging ability, etc in the ones from the 2013 hatches. But, like I said, I only started feeding them this new way in December, and the info I gave above was the one I re-worked in January. So, already, they've had variety, in that it's changed each month. My thing is if if between breeding and a better diet, the offspring that I will hatch this year, will be laying for 3-4 years. But, since I love to hatch and grow chicks, if I had to keep the same hens for their whole life, I'd end up with over 100 chickens easily!

So, you might say that I don't have the same goals as you do, but wanted to glean some of things you've learned over the years.

I do feed back eggshells, but not egg whites. Because I do sell my eggs, it can't really be feeding too many eggs back to the chickens.

I bought fish meal from a local farmer's co-op, who just bagged up 25lbs for me. So, it doesn't have any labels or info. The one place I would able to get better quality fish meal - I'd have to order 80lbs - which would last me over one year. So, in order to do that, I'd need other people to split the bag with me.

The flax is not sprouted - I tried and discovered the same thing = awful mess! So, for awhile, I just soaked it overnight in a separate container and added the whole thing to the mixture when I was ready to feed. But to eliminate a step, I now put the flax in the lacto-fermenting bucket that has the Organic alfalfa pellets + some non-organic timothy hay/alfalfa mini cubes that were on clearance. Once the "mini cubes" are gone, I won't buy any more, since it isn't organic.
But, it was mentioned on this thread about when flax is soaked, the gelatinous mass needs to be rinsed because of the enzyme inhibitors. So, I should probably should soak them separately again, and rinse, right?

Oh, and not everything could I get organic (or it was way too cost-prohibitive), or I already had non-organic sources of the feed, so I have to use those up. But, right now, I'd prefer to have some non-organic feed, while I'm still trying to figure this all out.

I have to check with the supplier again, but the organic wheat was out of stock from "Lakeview Organics". When I ordered the wheat from "Cold Spring Organic Grain", it was actually from "Lakeview". Because wheat is the hardest thing to source, I couldn't make it a main staple, then no longer be able to get it.
I've had no problem sprouting the organic field peas (there are other seeds in the mix, but that adds some variety), and didn't have any problem sourcing them.
Bird seed - no, it's not organic; it's not a high percentage of the mix. It's mainly millet, milo, wheat, sunflower seeds, and an occasional piece of cracked corn (which I'd prefer it didn't have). They bird seed sprouts just fine, and the chickens love the sprouted millet.
The organic "small grain mix" has wheat, oat, barley, triticale, peas & an occasional stray piece of corn.
The sesame seeds I'm thinking of reducing the amount - because they don't sprout very well, the chickens leave them to the last, and they are $62 for a 25 lb for human-grade non-organic! But, they are high in protein, so I'd don't know what I'd replace it.
The chickens often get lettuce and greens from the restaurant food scraps, plus I grow kale and other greens that I try to feed them throughout the winter. If I can make an auto-watering fodder system, then I'd grow them fodder again, but it's otherwise too time-consuming for the size flock I have.

We don't have Whole Foods or Costco, just a local food co-op, from which I buy the lentils and sesame seeds. I checked today the price of their tumeric (0.85/ oz) and cayenne (0.80/oz), but I'm going to do some comp-shopping. The rest of the organic feed I ordered through a locally owned feed store from Cold Spring Organic. The bird seed is from TSC, but if I can find another supply of just plain millet, all the better.

Part of the reason I converted to this type of feed is because of the mixed ages of chickens kept all together. All the chicks are now raised by broody hens, who keep them with the rest of the flock, so it was challenging to feed them separate types of food. This past year, I fed everyone layer mash mixed with chick starter, and while they did okay, I decided I need to change their feed. I went from feeding them fermented cheap mash mixed with some whole grains to this, that's far from the cheapest. I priced the organic layer mash and it's $30+ for 50lbs, and this whole grain is at least $40.60 per 50lbs. And I'm using 150 lbs a month. Before, I was paying max $12 for a 50lb bag of layer mash, plus $8-10 for oats, $20 for BOSS, and $10 for 35lbs bird seed. The oats, boss & bird seed would last several months. The eggs I do sell are at or below cost of production (after raising the price $1/doz).
Because I'm feeding everyone the same thing, although they can pick out the individual grains, non-layers and layers, young and old all get fed from the same bucket because they all live together. So, it would be hard to just feed the turmeric and cayenne to just to layers.

I don't premix the seeds, I just measure out what I need for the next batch of sprouts. Then, I measure out the "dry mix" and add it to the wet mixture that I've going to be feeding the next day. It takes me about 1 1/2 hrs each night to prepare the food for the following day and get the next batch of sprouts going.

As far as variety, that comes in form of the food scraps, not only ours but from a two restaurants and occasionally a few other people. Plus, we have another source of day-old food that whatever we can't use, they get. They get cooked rice several times a week from one of the restaurants.

Right now, they're not getting much meat/bugs/whey, but now I'll work on that. Raising mealworms and black solider beetles is on my list, I just have to get it started.

Yes, it had helped, because it's all a learning process, and every changing. I don't see the 'recipe' I posted above as rigid, as I'm already thinking of ways to change or add this or that.
Oh, I forgot to add - not included in that list is homegrown dried foxtail millet, lamb's quarter seeds and amaranth that I add to the sprout mixture. I also have dried lamb's quarter greens and stinging nettles, which I just started to add to their diet.

When you said that there wasn't a large variety in way of seeds/grains, what else is there? I've gone through several lists of the grains to feed chickens. The only ones I'm not that I can think of is corn and soy - and that's on purpose.

 

[DorothyH]

Yes, I have more than 9 chickens, as I average abt 16 eggs a day. But, I don't know how many laying hens/pullets I have, and some don't lay every day. So, I'd estimate that I have at least 20-25 hens/pullets that are egg laying age.

But, I'm not planning on keeping them for their own life span, and the Red Stars, Dominiques & Rhode Island Red I have currently (who were raised on commercial feed) will be due for the pot in the fall. My only hope is the ones that have been fed a better diet from the time they hatch will have a longer lay of rate. I've already seen an increase in vitality, foraging ability, etc in the ones from the 2013 hatches. But, like I said, I only started feeding them this new way in December, and the info I gave above was the one I re-worked in January. So, already, they've had variety, in that it's changed each month. My thing is if if between breeding and a better diet, the offspring that I will hatch this year, will be laying for 3-4 years. But, since I love to hatch and grow chicks, if I had to keep the same hens for their whole life, I'd end up with over 100 chickens easily!

So, you might say that I don't have the same goals as you do, but wanted to glean some of things you've learned over the years.

I do feed back eggshells, but not egg whites. Because I do sell my eggs, it can't really be feeding too many eggs back to the chickens.

I bought fish meal from a local farmer's co-op, who just bagged up 25lbs for me. So, it doesn't have any labels or info. The one place I would able to get better quality fish meal - I'd have to order 80lbs - which would last me over one year. So, in order to do that, I'd need other people to split the bag with me.

The flax is not sprouted - I tried and discovered the same thing = awful mess! So, for awhile, I just soaked it overnight in a separate container and added the whole thing to the mixture when I was ready to feed. But to eliminate a step, I now put the flax in the lacto-fermenting bucket that has the Organic alfalfa pellets + some non-organic timothy hay/alfalfa mini cubes that were on clearance. Once the "mini cubes" are gone, I won't buy any more, since it isn't organic.
But, it was mentioned on this thread about when flax is soaked, the gelatinous mass needs to be rinsed because of the enzyme inhibitors. So, I should probably should soak them separately again, and rinse, right?

Oh, and not everything could I get organic (or it was way too cost-prohibitive), or I already had non-organic sources of the feed, so I have to use those up. But, right now, I'd prefer to have some non-organic feed, while I'm still trying to figure this all out.

I have to check with the supplier again, but the organic wheat was out of stock from "Lakeview Organics". When I ordered the wheat from "Cold Spring Organic Grain", it was actually from "Lakeview". Because wheat is the hardest thing to source, I couldn't make it a main staple, then no longer be able to get it.
I've had no problem sprouting the organic field peas (there are other seeds in the mix, but that adds some variety), and didn't have any problem sourcing them.
Bird seed - no, it's not organic; it's not a high percentage of the mix. It's mainly millet, milo, wheat, sunflower seeds, and an occasional piece of cracked corn (which I'd prefer it didn't have). They bird seed sprouts just fine, and the chickens love the sprouted millet.
The organic "small grain mix" has wheat, oat, barley, triticale, peas & an occasional stray piece of corn.
The sesame seeds I'm thinking of reducing the amount - because they don't sprout very well, the chickens leave them to the last, and they are $62 for a 25 lb for human-grade non-organic! But, they are high in protein, so I'd don't know what I'd replace it.
The chickens often get lettuce and greens from the restaurant food scraps, plus I grow kale and other greens that I try to feed them throughout the winter. If I can make an auto-watering fodder system, then I'd grow them fodder again, but it's otherwise too time-consuming for the size flock I have.

We don't have Whole Foods or Costco, just a local food co-op, from which I buy the lentils and sesame seeds. I checked today the price of their tumeric (0.85/ oz) and cayenne (0.80/oz), but I'm going to do some comp-shopping. The rest of the organic feed I ordered through a locally owned feed store from Cold Spring Organic. The bird seed is from TSC, but if I can find another supply of just plain millet, all the better.

Part of the reason I converted to this type of feed is because of the mixed ages of chickens kept all together. All the chicks are now raised by broody hens, who keep them with the rest of the flock, so it was challenging to feed them separate types of food. This past year, I fed everyone layer mash mixed with chick starter, and while they did okay, I decided I need to change their feed. I went from feeding them fermented cheap mash mixed with some whole grains to this, that's far from the cheapest. I priced the organic layer mash and it's $30+ for 50lbs, and this whole grain is at least $40.60 per 50lbs. And I'm using 150 lbs a month. Before, I was paying max $12 for a 50lb bag of layer mash, plus $8-10 for oats, $20 for BOSS, and $10 for 35lbs bird seed. The oats, boss & bird seed would last several months. The eggs I do sell are at or below cost of production (after raising the price $1/doz).
Because I'm feeding everyone the same thing, although they can pick out the individual grains, non-layers and layers, young and old all get fed from the same bucket because they all live together. So, it would be hard to just feed the turmeric and cayenne to just to layers.

I don't premix the seeds, I just measure out what I need for the next batch of sprouts. Then, I measure out the "dry mix" and add it to the wet mixture that I've going to be feeding the next day. It takes me about 1 1/2 hrs each night to prepare the food for the following day and get the next batch of sprouts going.

As far as variety, that comes in form of the food scraps, not only ours but from a two restaurants and occasionally a few other people. Plus, we have another source of day-old food that whatever we can't use, they get. They get cooked rice several times a week from one of the restaurants.

Right now, they're not getting much meat/bugs/whey, but now I'll work on that. Raising mealworms and black solider beetles is on my list, I just have to get it started.

Yes, it had helped, because it's all a learning process, and every changing. I don't see the 'recipe' I posted above as rigid, as I'm already thinking of ways to change or add this or that.
Oh, I forgot to add - not included in that list is homegrown dried foxtail millet, lamb's quarter seeds and amaranth that I add to the sprout mixture. I also have dried lamb's quarter greens and stinging nettles, which I just started to add to their diet.

When you said that there wasn't a large variety in way of seeds/grains, what else is there? I've gone through several lists of the grains to feed chickens. The only ones I'm not that I can think of is corn and soy - and that's on purpose.

Ya know - everything is about individuals and goals when it comes to this stuff. You have a bigger flock and you sell eggs so need to make a profit and your time has to be taken into account in terms of running a business. You love hatching and you don't mind culling. That makes your life soooooo much easier in many ways. You also have restaurants! I was getting stuff from a restaurant and a neighbor and boy was that better in terms of free food and happy full chickens - but the eggs didn't taste right for me eating them raw.

If I were in your shoes here's what I would do - and it's totally just ideas so please don't take any of it as instruction or anything like that. If I were raising chickens like you of all different ages for egg laying only when young and culling and trying to run a business - I think what I would do is ask the restaurants for everything including the meat scraped from plates etc. The chickens will ALWAYS pick out the meat and cheese etc. first. They're smart about that. If you are getting food from a decent restaurant it could be much better for your chickens than any chicken feed at least. If you put the less appealing scraps into some composters for black soldier fly production where you just let your chickens in to get some maggots then you will have some good food there too.

Depending on how much scraps you get in your situation you might be better off hatching out chickens frequently, letting them eat for free for a couple of years and lay for that time and then culling. It's just an idea - but you sure are working hard and selling your eggs without much if any profit - so - I guess it depends on whether or not you need income from this business or if you just want to do it "right" even if it's at a loss? Your eggs will still be way superior to any others if their diet has lots of diversity and more protein.

If you want to get the omega 3 level up and do something for your layers then I would suggest instead of an hour and half every night instead making dehydrated treats like I do that you leave out and only your layers will be attracted to. The birds that aren't laying aren't going to want all that calcium and those herbs etc. They tend to leave it alone if there are other good food sources. Instead of working every day so long I would prefer to do work just one day making treats that I can leave out for the layers to nibble on when and if they need it.

Might you be taking on an awful lot? You might actually be able to make some money from your hens if you use the resources you have procured as you main source of food and then just supplement slightly. The sprouting and rinsing with so many chickens might be quite a bit more overwhelming than letting the chickens pick their own scraps and leave it at that. It's the protein from the fish that sounds like a great thing that you sourced. The seeds don't have to be considered for their protein content if you have fish and meat and dairy scraps no?

If you had customers that would actually appreciate and pay you for your upgrades and hard work - well then - that's one thing - but it's hard to compete when you are doing things that other people can't understand or appreciate. That I guess would depend on how savvy your generally population is.

I think what I might do in your situation was to separate just enough hens for my own egg production and feed them top notch and then hatch eggs from them (think Potteger's Cats - if you don't know them it's about how over generations a great diet makes more and more impact and vice versa) and you can eat eggs from those hens. For the rest you could then just do better than others but not over the top - make it easier and cheaper for yourself. Mostly scraps, eggs for a couple of years, cull and raise babies for the next generation in a couple of years.

Of course I really don't know what your goals, desires, energy levels, financial situation etc. etc. is - above is just what comes to mind for me and what I would from the little bit I know from what you wrote and is just for discussion sake.

It's all about figuring out what you need, want and can afford in terms of money and time. When I read what you do and that you just break even I thought that I would never want to do that - but that's me! I can't afford that in terms of time or financially. I just have a small amount of pets that I want to keep as healthy as possible as long as possible with the most eggs as possible that taste the best they can raw as possible and never cull at all even once and I never want to sell anything at all. The work you do could be a pure labor of love - but I guess I don't love my chickens that much. lol. My chickens take less than 5 minutes a day to feed and care for.

 

[DorothyH]

Oh - and about the flax. I soak and then rinse and then there's still enough goop to use the flax to make crackers/balls to mix in the powders and dehydrate. Flax raises omega 3's but so does raw fish leftovers and the raw fish is easier. The thing that is appealing about flax is how useful it is to absorb and hold the powdery things together for me. Otherwise - I wouldn't use it at all. Too much of a pain with the goop to rinse. All the other seeds need just a quick rinse but it takes time to rinse flax.

 

[myfivegirls]

Thanks for the ideas, it's always great to have another perspective. That got me thinking - I could mix the turmeric, cayenne, whey & flax together, since that's mostly for the layers. Then, they could eat it as needed. I don't add any extra calcium (besides what's in the poultry mineral mix) to the feed itself, just free-choice in a separate feeder.

While I do sell eggs and some of chicks, older hens, etc - I don't consider it a business by any means - more like a hobby where I do get reimbursed for some of the cost of raising them. But, the main purpose is to provide our family with food, and I love all the animals. And yes, I am willing to take a loss for the sake of doing it the best I can with the resources I have available.

The time it takes me every day isn't in making the supplements - that's 5 min tops, between measuring it out and dumping it into the bucket of feed.
To measure out all the seeds is about 5 min or less.
I use homemade burlap bags to sprout in, as I don't have water/rinse the sprouts every day for five days. What takes the time is rinsing that day's sprouts to feed, emptying out the soak bucket, rising those sprouts and hanging up to drain out. Then, I take the empty sprout bag and hand wash them in vinegar and castile soap, rinse, pour seeds into the bags, rinse, put in bucket, fill with water and vinegar. Then, I combine the sprouts with the flax, small grains (in a separate bag or else they're wash out) and supplements. I also will sometimes (if I'm not too tired) puree whole pumpkins and combine with feed mixture.

I do get a lot of scraps, but not enough to sustain the whole flock, especially in the winter. I don't get much meat, just a little from the Japanese place. I did get some raw chicken few times and mentioned it and they stopped. I actually wanted the meat, but they misunderstood. So, perhaps I'll let them know that meat is okay, even if it's raw.
I've tried getting scraps from a few other places, but no success so far.

I don't have the facilities to separate the flock into two. I already have a separate coop for the extra roosters that will be for breeding this spring!

Yes, it's a labor of love and most of my customers know and appreciate that. I've also said that what I'm doing most other people would not want to do. But, that's why I'm trying to learn and glean everything I can, to simplify where I can without compromising their health.

I went on Amazon.com and they had the cayenne and turmeric for much less than the food co-op. Plus, I had some gift cards, so that helped. And I also ordered some meal worms, so they can get started, since it takes several months to get established before you can feed them consistently. I like that they are a pretty easy, if you keep them all in one bin. I'll have to keep researching the black soldier fly, as I'd prefer making something for them, rather than having to buy the pre-made "pods".

About the hatching, I plan on doing it every year, to sell some pullets, eat the cockerels and keep some of the pullets for myself. So, that helps with the cost, as the young stock have the advantage of foraging and don't eat as much as the adults. My goal? I can't narrow it down to one, as I've diversified now beyond just chickens for eggs. Plus, the Muscovy ducks eat the same feed, and are much more efficient at foraging and converting the little feed they get into meat. I also have rabbits, who didn't do so well last year, but hopefully this year will be better. They also eat the sprouted grains (plus pellets, which I'd like to eliminate). You might say I have OCD (Obsessive Chicken Disorder), as I also recently got 11 round bales and 6 large square bales worth of mulch hay, so the chickens have something to scratch and dig in, and work into compost. I used to get another source of material for the compost, but it had other animal manures (who were raised who knows how). When I wasn't able to get any this past year, I thought that perhaps it would be better to source compost materials that didn't include other animal manures. But, that's getting off-topic!

When I had only 5 chickens, it still took me 15 min a day, day and night, and that was with layer mash! I've never been able to get it down to 5 min a day, and even if I did, I'd spend the rest of the time watching and enjoying the flock, or moving hay or compost around!

 

[DorothyH]

OCD - Obsessive Chicken Disorder

The five minutes of course does not include cuddling and loving and watching - if I included that everyone would think that my chickens are difficult!

I've found that my chickens (yes - I've actually experimented carefully) prefer their sprouts not more than 2 days sprouted and do not care if it's just rinsed and fed or if it's a day sprouting - they like it pretty much equally. Of course sprouting longer cuts costs because you are in essence growing greens for the chickens but I find it so incredibly easy to start soaking in the morning in a bowl in my kitchen, pour the seeds into a colander and rinse and let sit over night and then rinse in the morning and feed half and the other half later. That's my process. I could sprout a little longer but it wouldn't be any extra nutrition for the chickens just cheaper and my routine has become almost like brushing my teeth it's so easy to remember and do at this point so no need to make anything harder on myself. I would never mess with burlap - that's too difficult. My colander I can give a quick wipe or throw in the dishwasher. Easy Peasy. I usually only feed seeds that don't go through the colander and then occasionally will do a small bowl of tiny seeds like amaranth, millet and quinoa and put them through my tight-weave kitchen strainer to rinse just for seed variety. I think if I had 3 times the chickens I'd do it the same way.

I don't measure seeds. I have a very big glass jar that I put all the seeds mixed together in and I just add whatever hubbie brings home and give it a stir. It's never exactly the same mix day to day. Then I just measure once into the soaking bowl. I would do it the same way even if I had to use a garbage can instead of pretty glass jar - or maybe three jars. If I have to mix lots of seeds I put them in a massive pot I have to mix and then poor some into the glass jar to keep out where I can get it easily. Once I figured how much cayenne, tumeric and whey, even when feeding each day instead of the deyhydrated treats - I mixed the powders together so I wouldn't have to measure them separately every day. I'd rather spend my chicken time playing around outside with the chickens.

I do this all indoors - none if it outdoors except feeding the chickens. Everything near enough to the kitchen sink. I work at home so I feed my chickens at least three times a day because I just walk out the back door and fling things - very few bowls used so not much clean up.

I don't puree things like pumpkins and such. The most I will ever do is chop something but most of the time my hens have to earn their own way by doing their own "chopping". I will throw out a whole fish or a big slice of liver and they tear it apart themselves. I chop raw yams but they get whole carrots and whole fruits like bananas with the peels on etc. I think it's good for them to have to work a little for their food. I'm sure that wouldn't work with ducks though. I'll cross that road when the ducks hatch.

Well, that's what's easiest for me in case it helps.

 

[myfivegirls]

Yes, the chickens do prefer the 5-day sprouts over the 8-10 day fodder I was growing last winter. The rabbits preferred the fodder, but chickens mostly scratched through it to find the seed and it that. And yes, I do like growing them the "micro" greens, and with the burlap I don't have to water them to keep them growing those extra days. So, with the set-up I have now, it doesn't take much more effort (especially if compared to having to rinse every single jar or container every day, which is what I did last year) to grow them out to five days. With the burlap bags, whether I grow them for 2 days or 5 days, I still have to do the same rinsing off the seeds, soaking, rinsing them again before feeding. But, everyone has their preferred method, and I'm find with that. For me, I've tried using strainers and due to the small seeds in my mixture, they get stuck or wash out. But the burlap's weave is small enough that it keeps all but the smallest seeds inside. For the smallest seeds (sesame, homegrown millet, amaranth, lamb's quarter), they are sprouted in a small cotton bag. But, those don't sprout so well, so I might just soak those short-term. I don't mix the seeds or supplements together until I'm ready to feed it, and then I do it all in a 5-gallon bucket.

I keep most of the chicken's feed-stuff indoors, too, and do the washing/rinsing in the bathtub. It would be hard to not measure the seeds for me, because I have all the seeds separated. Since I bought most of them in bulk, like 25-50lb bags, I'd need a huge drum to put them all together in. And that would be more work mixing together than just simply measuring it out. At least, that's what I've found, since I'm obviously feeding more than 9 chickens. But, I can see where if feeding on a small scale, you wouldn't have to be some meticulous.

The only reason I puree the pumpkin, is because otherwise they just eat the seeds and let the flesh rod and get dirty, kick compost all over it, etc. They love pumpkin for the first week I give it to them, then they won't eat it. Plus, here it freezes if I just let the whole pumpkin sit outside for them to eat. They don't like pumpkin ice cream, for some reason! Everything else I pretty much let them pick and choose what they eat, though they don't particularly care for whole carrots. I fed the young stock shredded carrots (part of the food scraps we got for free) when they were chicks in hopes they'd learn to eat carrots, but they usually just let them compost. They usually won't peel bananas, either. I, too, like them to work for their food, but sometimes they get too lazy. Plus, here in the winter when it gets really cold, food scraps freeze before they can eat them all.

Well, it's dark now, so I better go close them up, give them food and get their food prepared for tomorrow, when I work.

Thanks for all your suggestions - it's interested to compare and see what works and how others do it.

 

[DorothyH]

Yes, the chickens do prefer the 5-day sprouts over the 8-10 day fodder I was growing last winter. The rabbits preferred the fodder, but chickens mostly scratched through it to find the seed and it that. And yes, I do like growing them the "micro" greens, and with the burlap I don't have to water them to keep them growing those extra days. So, with the set-up I have now, it doesn't take much more effort (especially if compared to having to rinse every single jar or container every day, which is what I did last year) to grow them out to five days. With the burlap bags, whether I grow them for 2 days or 5 days, I still have to do the same rinsing off the seeds, soaking, rinsing them again before feeding. But, everyone has their preferred method, and I'm find with that. For me, I've tried using strainers and due to the small seeds in my mixture, they get stuck or wash out. But the burlap's weave is small enough that it keeps all but the smallest seeds inside. For the smallest seeds (sesame, homegrown millet, amaranth, lamb's quarter), they are sprouted in a small cotton bag. But, those don't sprout so well, so I might just soak those short-term. I don't mix the seeds or supplements together until I'm ready to feed it, and then I do it all in a 5-gallon bucket.

I keep most of the chicken's feed-stuff indoors, too, and do the washing/rinsing in the bathtub. It would be hard to not measure the seeds for me, because I have all the seeds separated. Since I bought most of them in bulk, like 25-50lb bags, I'd need a huge drum to put them all together in. And that would be more work mixing together than just simply measuring it out. At least, that's what I've found, since I'm obviously feeding more than 9 chickens. But, I can see where if feeding on a small scale, you wouldn't have to be some meticulous.

The only reason I puree the pumpkin, is because otherwise they just eat the seeds and let the flesh rod and get dirty, kick compost all over it, etc. They love pumpkin for the first week I give it to them, then they won't eat it. Plus, here it freezes if I just let the whole pumpkin sit outside for them to eat. They don't like pumpkin ice cream, for some reason! Everything else I pretty much let them pick and choose what they eat, though they don't particularly care for whole carrots. I fed the young stock shredded carrots (part of the food scraps we got for free) when they were chicks in hopes they'd learn to eat carrots, but they usually just let them compost. They usually won't peel bananas, either. I, too, like them to work for their food, but sometimes they get too lazy. Plus, here in the winter when it gets really cold, food scraps freeze before they can eat them all.

Well, it's dark now, so I better go close them up, give them food and get their food prepared for tomorrow, when I work.

Thanks for all your suggestions - it's interested to compare and see what works and how others do it.

Boy - do you ever work harder then I ever would God Bless you. I've never washed seeds before soaking even when I ate the sprouts. Then you sprout for so many days! That's so much rinsing. The longer you sprout the more often you have to rinse. 5 days is ages - I've never sprouted for chickens that long. The most I've ever even tried was 3 days because after two the chickens told me that I didn't have to go through the trouble. The very longest the process is for me is 24 hours which seems to make the chickens the happiest and is the easiest to do in my experience. You also feed the small seeds with the big seeds. I have a small strainer that no tiny seed goes through and a larger colander for the big seeds. When I've bought larger quantities of different seeds I took all the seeds and put them in a big container to mix and then transferred portions into a smaller container to deal with. I wouldn't have the patience to measure out each individual seed every day. I'd measure larger quantities all at once working the percentages - but I don't even do that. Measuring like that every day must be so tedious. You have 20 - 25 hens (not sure how many chickens total though) which is about three or four times the amount I have so I can easily translate your situation. You do much more complicated things for your large flock than I do for my tiny one. And of course - If it works for you it works! I just don't have that kind of time and energy even with 9 birds.

I've found that often people say that sprouting is too much work and now I understand why. I say, well put seeds in bowl, pour in colander rinse - not exactly hard or time consuming - but when people hear "sprouting" they associate it with what you do with bags or cheese cloth covered jars and tiny greens. All I want to do is get rid of the enzyme inhibitors and jack up the nutrition and life force a bit. I guess if my chickens actually liked sprouts vs soaked and rinsed seeds I might feel the obligation to do the work you do but they so obviously prefer I don't do it - so I get off easy.

We once in a while here get freezing weather too - but I don't have to deal with the same concerns with cold like you do. I'm from NY so I know exactly what you are dealing with - but never had chickens to raise when there - but I understand how harsh the conditions can be. This time of year you could throw out a banana and in no time at all have banana icecream. lol. Obviously you have modify diet with weather conditions - just like I feed the chickens watermelon in the three months often over 100 degrees and no rain that we call summer here and work hard to keep my chickens from becoming deep fried chicken just hanging out in the yard. Not feeding anything dry and dehydrated has really made a very big difference for the girls staying hydrated and safe in the summer. You might find that the cayenne helps them a good deal in the winter.

Well - I'm off the computer for today. It's been nice chatting.

 

[cedarmountain]

Great thread! Where would we look for animal grade whey? Thank you.

 

[Florida]

This diet is somewhat like my chickens get, and they have shiny feathers and lay lots of eggs, lots of eggs.

What I do with many of the eggs is, scramble them and feed back to the chickens. However what they love the best is when I boil them (the eggs not the chickens) and then smash the boiled eggs, feeding them shell and all. The chickens like eggs shells better than oyster shells. This has not led to them eating their own eggs.

I learned a lesson about feeding too many black seeded sunflowers seeds. The hens when given laying mash and scratch feed with lots of the seeds mixed in, would always eat the seeds first. This led to eggs that tasted "strong". Cut out the black seed sunflower seeds, added some shelled, non black seeds and started them on a lifetime of loving scraps. They free range and help themselves to the horses feed and all the bugs that they can eat. One day I saw the horse round the chickens up like one would see a horse do cows and ran them out of her part of the pasture. They were back and in her feed dish the next day.