Is this diet OK for Chickens?

[SavageDestiny]

I'm so glad this has been useful to you!

I don't ferment grains for the chickens. I have found it hard to make sure I'm fermenting the right thing usually with grains and generally, I like the idea of GROWING seeds a little in order to create more enzymatic activity (aka life force). I've tasted too many fermented grain concoctions meant for even human consumption that were "off". Fermenting regular chicken feed seems insane to me. There are almost always chemicalized vitamin mixtures in there and they are often treated as a whole with high heat or are at least ground up making the fats break down badly and who knows what kinds of bacteria would be growing already on such a product. Yikes! I won't even ferment organic whole grains let alone perhaps old, ground up, highly heated, additive ridden chicken feed! I wouldn't ferment anything but raw natural foods myself.

I keep the ferments for the chickens to the ferments that I myself would eat. My chickens love fermented dairy and even kombucha scobies - which is a very nice use for the extras. They eat lots of fermented things in the yard as well. Fruits that naturally are fermenting and things that lie around fermenting and I feed them every second day what is called "high meat". I open a 2 pound or so package of ground up whole raw grass-fed cow and give them half and the other half I mix periodically to keep all of it exposed to oxygen so that the good bacteria in/on the meat can grow and provide excellent gut bacteria for the chickens and feed that on the second day.

Whey is the by-product of making cheese and can be a by-product of making yogurt as well. The softer the cheese the less whey has been removed. I haven't worked with goat milk but of course you can get whey out of raw goat milk! I would suggest picking what kind of cheese you might want to try making from your goat milk and using the leftover whey for the chickens but if you are going to use the milk only for the whey - I would suggest not going through the trouble of siphoning off all the whey and just fermenting the milk in the easiest way for you and then feeding it whole to your chickens. That way they will get some good dairy bacteria, carbs and other good stuff from the whole fermented milk as well. Chickens tend not to be very picky about the kind of cheese they eat. lol. If it's fermented dairy that isn't too sour you'd have strange chickens indeed that wouldn't gobble it up. Goat milk tends to be naturally homogenized so the chickens would also get a nice good source of fat as well with the whole milk being used.

It's a bit of a study to learn to make these things but once you get it down - you got it! There are lots of great sources on-line on how to make cheese. It's really a lot of fun and is quite empowering. Some of the hard cheeses are not so easy because they need exactly the right temps and only particular strains of bacteria - but there are some simple softer and younger cheeses you can try. With goat there is chevre and feta for instance. YUM! I'm jealous actually. I'm thinking of getting a couple of tiny goats for my little suburban yard one day the animals and the milk are so wonderful to have. What I really want is my own fermented butter again. Oh - that was heaven!

You are getting into chickens and into raw fermented dairy. You are going to have a grand time! It was like a whole new world opening up learning about those two things for us.

Well I plan on sprouting/growing fodder for them, since the area they will be in doesn't really grow grass. Out here in the desert grass needs loads of water to survive and I don't think the chickens would appreciate being watered constantly, haha. I'll probably be sprouting mostly wheat and barley grass for them, and experiment with what other sprouting grains I can mix in for them. Fermenting sounds good to me because it helps break down the seeds to be more digestible, and it provides so many good bacteria! I do want to avoid pre-made feed like the plague. Dog kibble grosses me out and I think I'd have a nervous breakdown feeding it to my dogs, so I don't want to feed "kibble" to my chickens either. Processed, dry, hard little nuggets just do not seem like food to me!

I didn't think about just fermenting the milk instead of making cheese. Would that contain as much methionine as the whey from cheese? Could I just mix it in with their feed to make sure they drink it? I do like the idea of just fermenting and feeding the whole milk, since goat milk has so many great nutrients. I don't actually have goats, but I know of a few good sources I can get raw milk from pasture fed, well loved goats for relatively cheap. I figure that is better than store bought cow's milk!

I don't really have access to free-range beef or lamb, the cost is astronomical around here! I want to raise meat rabbits as well, enough for it to be a staple for my dogs and us. I assume the chickens could have rabbit too? Rabbits will live in large pens instead of cages and eat a natural, pellet free diet as well. My whole goal is to get my family- me, my husband and the dogs and cats- eating mostly naturally raised rabbit with chicken thrown in for variety. Right now we all eat store-bought meat, and not only do I believe it is not as nutritious, I hate how the animals are treated. We try to eat little meat because of this, but my dogs need meat so there's not much choice there. So I want to "grow our own"! It's going to be a lot of work, but I love doing work for my animals. Just cut up and packaged six chickens this morning for dog food, actually! I just wish we could move out to the property faster and start sooner.

 

[DorothyH]

Well I plan on sprouting/growing fodder for them, since the area they will be in doesn't really grow grass. Out here in the desert grass needs loads of water to survive and I don't think the chickens would appreciate being watered constantly, haha. I'll probably be sprouting mostly wheat and barley grass for them, and experiment with what other sprouting grains I can mix in for them. Fermenting sounds good to me because it helps break down the seeds to be more digestible, and it provides so many good bacteria! I do want to avoid pre-made feed like the plague. Dog kibble grosses me out and I think I'd have a nervous breakdown feeding it to my dogs, so I don't want to feed "kibble" to my chickens either. Processed, dry, hard little nuggets just do not seem like food to me!

I didn't think about just fermenting the milk instead of making cheese. Would that contain as much methionine as the whey from cheese? Could I just mix it in with their feed to make sure they drink it? I do like the idea of just fermenting and feeding the whole milk, since goat milk has so many great nutrients. I don't actually have goats, but I know of a few good sources I can get raw milk from pasture fed, well loved goats for relatively cheap. I figure that is better than store bought cow's milk!

I don't really have access to free-range beef or lamb, the cost is astronomical around here! I want to raise meat rabbits as well, enough for it to be a staple for my dogs and us. I assume the chickens could have rabbit too? Rabbits will live in large pens instead of cages and eat a natural, pellet free diet as well. My whole goal is to get my family- me, my husband and the dogs and cats- eating mostly naturally raised rabbit with chicken thrown in for variety. Right now we all eat store-bought meat, and not only do I believe it is not as nutritious, I hate how the animals are treated. We try to eat little meat because of this, but my dogs need meat so there's not much choice there. So I want to "grow our own"! It's going to be a lot of work, but I love doing work for my animals. Just cut up and packaged six chickens this morning for dog food, actually! I just wish we could move out to the property faster and start sooner.

Sprouts are pretty easy to digest where raw seeds are the worse because of the enzyme inhibitors so seems like a whole lot more effort than I would want to spend. I would definitely make sure you rinse after your initial soaking though to get rid of the enzyme inhibitors that are released into the water or you will just be feeding those back to the chickens which are the worst part of feeding seeds imho. I prefer to provide bacteria in easier and in my view, safer ways.

I getcha on "I wouldn't feed dog food to my dog" philosophy. ha ha. If anything dog food is closer to chicken food than dog food because of all those grains!... but still .... nasty stuff.

Growing fodder sounds like it's going to be tough in the desert fer sure! If you can provide enough bugs, dairy and meat chickens don't need much seed really - that's just what people do because it's cheap - but you will have to make sure they get some greens from somewhere.

Dogs really do nicely on raw egg yolks ya know.

Whole milk will have a lesser concentration of methionine per calorie of course because the whey is only part of what milk is, but you will be given other things as well by providing the whole milk. I would just make sure that the chickens get a good source of magnesium if you are feeding lots of whole milk because milk will deplete a body of magnesium.

You also might want to consider quail as a meat source? If you're eating chickens makes all the sense in the world to raise them yourself well and compassionately -- much better for you and the animals. That's quite wise.

Rabbits are low in fat to the point where there is something called "rabbit starvation" (if I'm remembering right) so that you don't want to eat ONLY rabbit - but I think lots of homesteaders raise rabbit for an easy and steady meat source. You might also want to look into aquaponics if you like things like fish, scallops and shrimp as the water is recirculated and you use much less water (important in Arizona) and get not only fish but also nice organic veggies that way too for you and the animals. I'm actually going to set up quaquaponics using ducks and small fish for poopies to feed the plants and that way I can feed the fish to the ducks and chickens - but that's one of my down the road projects.

Before I do that though I want to try out growing blue green algae for us and the chickens. Got the tanks but just haven't ordered my kit yet.
I just LOVE this zero mile dining thing.

 

[SavageDestiny]

Sprouts are pretty easy to digest where raw seeds are the worse because of the enzyme inhibitors so seems like a whole lot more effort than I would want to spend. I would definitely make sure you rinse after your initial soaking though to get rid of the enzyme inhibitors that are released into the water or you will just be feeding those back to the chickens which are the worst part of feeding seeds imho. I prefer to provide bacteria in easier and in my view, safer ways.

I getcha on "I wouldn't feed dog food to my dog" philosophy. ha ha. If anything dog food is closer to chicken food than dog food because of all those grains!... but still .... nasty stuff.

Growing fodder sounds like it's going to be tough in the desert fer sure! If you can provide enough bugs, dairy and meat chickens don't need much seed really - that's just what people do because it's cheap - but you will have to make sure they get some greens from somewhere.

Dogs really do nicely on raw egg yolks ya know.

Whole milk will have a lesser concentration of methionine per calorie of course because the whey is only part of what milk is, but you will be given other things as well by providing the whole milk. I would just make sure that the chickens get a good source of magnesium if you are feeding lots of whole milk because milk will deplete a body of magnesium.

You also might want to consider quail as a meat source? If you're eating chickens makes all the sense in the world to raise them yourself well and compassionately -- much better for you and the animals. That's quite wise.

Rabbits are low in fat to the point where there is something called "rabbit starvation" (if I'm remembering right) so that you don't want to eat ONLY rabbit - but I think lots of homesteaders raise rabbit for an easy and steady meat source. You might also want to look into aquaponics if you like things like fish, scallops and shrimp as the water is recirculated and you use much less water (important in Arizona) and get not only fish but also nice organic veggies that way too for you and the animals. I'm actually going to set up quaquaponics using ducks and small fish for poopies to feed the plants and that way I can feed the fish to the ducks and chickens - but that's one of my down the road projects.

Before I do that though I want to try out growing blue green algae for us and the chickens. Got the tanks but just haven't ordered my kit yet.
I just LOVE this zero mile dining thing.

I will probably sprout some seeds for the chickens, but the enzyme inhibitors in the raw seeds are part of the reason I want to ferment if I feed seed. I will probably vary how I feed seed and even what seeds/grains I feed, since I believe that variety is the key to health. I figure many different types of fodder, sprouted seeds, whole grains, vegetables, fruits, and meat will keep my birdies healthy. Plus they'll be able to range and forage a lot when I move out to the property. I plan on growing enough fodder indoors that they can have a good amount of greens daily, plus green leafy vegetables.

I know rabbits are low in fat, as well as taurine which is a problem for cats. Rabbit will definitely not be the only meat source for us and the dogs, but they are by far the easiest animal to produce lots of meat from! Breeding and slaughtering regularly can feed a couple people and dogs quite easily, so they'll be the staple with chicken and other meat we can get ahold of as supplements. And yes, the dogs get raw eggs on a regular basis, they're part of the reason I want chickens. My dogs actually eat an entirely raw diet.

I've considered quail, but we will have to wait and see. I think I'm going to have my hands full with chickens, rabbits, dogs and cats, especially if I'm growing and making food for everyone! I'll also be running a dog grooming shop by the time this all happens, so I'll be a busy girl.

And loving every minute of it!

Do be cautious with the blue green algae. I don't know what sort of setup you have for it, but if you have dogs make absolutely sure your dog cannot get to it. Blue green algae is toxic to dogs. We have it growing naturally here in the summer, and every year people kill their dogs letting them swim or drink water with it.

 

[myfivegirls]

I found this thread today, and I'm loving it! It's very similar to what I'm doing. I don't have time to write it all down right now, as I'm trying to work on the feed prep now.

My question is - how much whey, cayenne powder, turmeric do you feed?
Like what percentage of their total diet?
Or how much do you feed for how many chickens?
I measure out their feed by the tablespoon or cup measure every day, and mix it together. I'm going to the local food co-op tomorrow, and want to know how much I'd need to buy of the cayenne & tumeric. We already buy raw milk, and often have whey leftover. My first chickens used to get fermented milk frequently, but I haven't been consistently giving them milk products in awhile. I had some whey that I gave them today, and they drank it up within 15 minutes!
The same place that sells the raw milk also makes cheese, so I'd love to ask it they would be willing to sell me whey leftover from the cheese.

Gotta get back to my feed, but I'm so glad I found this thread!

 

[DorothyH]

I will probably sprout some seeds for the chickens, but the enzyme inhibitors in the raw seeds are part of the reason I want to ferment if I feed seed. I will probably vary how I feed seed and even what seeds/grains I feed, since I believe that variety is the key to health. I figure many different types of fodder, sprouted seeds, whole grains, vegetables, fruits, and meat will keep my birdies healthy. Plus they'll be able to range and forage a lot when I move out to the property. I plan on growing enough fodder indoors that they can have a good amount of greens daily, plus green leafy vegetables.

I know rabbits are low in fat, as well as taurine which is a problem for cats. Rabbit will definitely not be the only meat source for us and the dogs, but they are by far the easiest animal to produce lots of meat from! Breeding and slaughtering regularly can feed a couple people and dogs quite easily, so they'll be the staple with chicken and other meat we can get ahold of as supplements. And yes, the dogs get raw eggs on a regular basis, they're part of the reason I want chickens. My dogs actually eat an entirely raw diet.

I've considered quail, but we will have to wait and see. I think I'm going to have my hands full with chickens, rabbits, dogs and cats, especially if I'm growing and making food for everyone! I'll also be running a dog grooming shop by the time this all happens, so I'll be a busy girl.

And loving every minute of it!

Do be cautious with the blue green algae. I don't know what sort of setup you have for it, but if you have dogs make absolutely sure your dog cannot get to it. Blue green algae is toxic to dogs. We have it growing naturally here in the summer, and every year people kill their dogs letting them swim or drink water with it.

You indeed are going to be a busy girl!

Thanks for the heads up on the blue green. It would be as a superb protein (and other nutrient) source for the humans and I was thinking for the chickens and ducks - not for the dogs - but good to know. I'm curious - since you give your dogs a raw species specific diet and your chickens are going to get one (sounds like) do you eat a raw species specific diet yourself?

I'm hoping that you realize that it is in the process of sprouting in water that seeds release their enzyme inhibitors. After soaking and rinsing fermenting will not effect enzyme inhibitors due to the fact that the enzyme inhibitors are already gone into the water (or soil) when the seed starts to sprout and the fermentation process will not increase enzymatic activity on the positive side as sprouting does. Fermentation will increase bacteria that is specific to seed digestion so for that it could be good if properly done without other bad bacteria taking over. Just make sure that you can tell the difference and I bet having the diversity could be good. For humans it is the water that the seeds are fermented in that is drank - not the seeds themselves as they are considered after fermentation to be nothing but carbohydrates) and not such a great source at that. It's the water that the seeds are soaked in that is drank by the folks that I used to know that loved fermenting grains to bubbly things filled with bacteria to drink and that I used to drink. Leftover grains from say beer making for instance are supposed to be fed only in small amounts to chickens for the carbohydrate content - not for bacteria.

Sounds like no matter what you are going to have to use some water in that food chain if you are going to produce the food for the animals right? Producing everything all down the line sounds great, but is a good deal of work to be sure. I was telling my husband that I'd like to feed the dogs more eggs so I need to feed the chickens well so I can grow fish for the chickens but then I'd need tiny shrimp like creatures to feed the fish so I will have to grow algae for the shrimp and he just shook his head and said, "you are taking this sustainability thing a little to far!" lol.

What you are setting up sounds fabulous to me.

You know if you are culling your hens often enough you don't have to be quite as meticulous as I am as far as feeding. My goal is to keep my ancient hens laying at full speed as long as I can get them to survive and flourish as long as possible. If you aren't eating your egg yolks raw you also don't have to be quite as meticulous. That's probably a good thing when trying to do so much at once.

How many cats and dogs do you have and what size? How much property? Just trying to get a better image in my mind of what you are trying to do out there in the desert.

 

[DorothyH]

I found this thread today, and I'm loving it! It's very similar to what I'm doing. I don't have time to write it all down right now, as I'm trying to work on the feed prep now.

My question is - how much whey, cayenne powder, turmeric do you feed?
Like what percentage of their total diet?
Or how much do you feed for how many chickens?
I measure out their feed by the tablespoon or cup measure every day, and mix it together. I'm going to the local food co-op tomorrow, and want to know how much I'd need to buy of the cayenne & tumeric. We already buy raw milk, and often have whey leftover. My first chickens used to get fermented milk frequently, but I haven't been consistently giving them milk products in awhile. I had some whey that I gave them today, and they drank it up within 15 minutes!
The same place that sells the raw milk also makes cheese, so I'd love to ask it they would be willing to sell me whey leftover from the cheese.

Gotta get back to my feed, but I'm so glad I found this thread!

Oh boy - I figured that out per chicken at one time! but it was too long ago. I never did figure it out as a percentage - more like how many parts of a teaspoon per day per chicken. It also is going to be different depending on what breed, how old, what condition etc. My chickens are OLD and are maniac breed layers - but they have been getting a pretty awesome diet for quite a long time. If you have old chickens that have been getting just chicken feed for their entire lives - I can't tell you what will happen. If you feed the whey and tumeric and cayenne but don't feed them enough protein or other things that are too hard for them to digest - can't say what will happen. I feed a 100% organic and grassfed and wild caught raw diet as the base and STILL the amounts change based upon what's happening in my yard. Right now I have to feed them more of my chicken nugget/crackers because there is no grass so they really need the carotenoids.

I wouldn't ever worry about feeding chickens too much whey. I would offer everything you got. I used tol pretty much cover the sprouts in whey and sprinkle the cayenne and tumeric on top of that at one point. If you are feeding a raw diet with enough raw meat then if the hens aren't laying well or stop laying that means you aren't giving enough of the tumeric, cayenne and/whey.

I hate to be so wishy washy - but this is not an exact science and doubt that it would be even if I did a bunch of research because of different living conditions/environments, other foods, laying rates, age and health of the birds in questions etc. I wish I could be more specific. I guess you could start with an 1/8 of a teaspoon of everything and work your way up from there until you get the results you want? I wouldn't go past a tablespoon per hen though - I can't imagine any hen needing that much. Does that give you some idea?

 

[SavageDestiny]

You indeed are going to be a busy girl!

Thanks for the heads up on the blue green. It would be as a superb protein (and other nutrient) source for the humans and I was thinking for the chickens and ducks - not for the dogs - but good to know. I'm curious - since you give your dogs a raw species specific diet and your chickens are going to get one (sounds like) do you eat a raw species specific diet yourself?

I'm hoping that you realize that it is in the process of sprouting in water that seeds release their enzyme inhibitors. After soaking and rinsing fermenting will not effect enzyme inhibitors due to the fact that the enzyme inhibitors are already gone into the water (or soil) when the seed starts to sprout and the fermentation process will not increase enzymatic activity on the positive side as sprouting does. Fermentation will increase bacteria that is specific to seed digestion so for that it could be good if properly done without other bad bacteria taking over. Just make sure that you can tell the difference and I bet having the diversity could be good. For humans it is the water that the seeds are fermented in that is drank - not the seeds themselves as they are considered after fermentation to be nothing but carbohydrates) and not such a great source at that. It's the water that the seeds are soaked in that is drank by the folks that I used to know that loved fermenting grains to bubbly things filled with bacteria to drink and that I used to drink. Leftover grains from say beer making for instance are supposed to be fed only in small amounts to chickens for the carbohydrate content - not for bacteria.

Sounds like no matter what you are going to have to use some water in that food chain if you are going to produce the food for the animals right? Producing everything all down the line sounds great, but is a good deal of work to be sure. I was telling my husband that I'd like to feed the dogs more eggs so I need to feed the chickens well so I can grow fish for the chickens but then I'd need tiny shrimp like creatures to feed the fish so I will have to grow algae for the shrimp and he just shook his head and said, "you are taking this sustainability thing a little to far!" lol.

What you are setting up sounds fabulous to me.

You know if you are culling your hens often enough you don't have to be quite as meticulous as I am as far as feeding. My goal is to keep my ancient hens laying at full speed as long as I can get them to survive and flourish as long as possible. If you aren't eating your egg yolks raw you also don't have to be quite as meticulous. That's probably a good thing when trying to do so much at once.

How many cats and dogs do you have and what size? How much property? Just trying to get a better image in my mind of what you are trying to do out there in the desert.

I *try* to eat very healthy, but I admit I have a bit of a junk food addiction. I'm much more a stickler about my animals' nutrition!

I know how silly it is, but there you are!

I think I will probably experiment with fermenting vs. sprouting and probably do a mix of both. As I said, I feel like variety is key! At least that is a huge part of making a proper diet for my dogs. The cats are much more picky, so I'm stuck feeding them a variety of canned and freeze dried foods. Just can't get them to eat home cooked or raw, although my boys I can get to eat some premade raw patties and small chicken pieces. The girls say NO WAY. I have four cats and two dogs, a Pit Bull and a Pit Bull/Sighthound X. The bulldog is 54lbs and the sighthound mix is 51. The mix actually eats more than my bulldog, he's got a zippy little metabolism! He eats roughly 1.5lbs of food a day, my Pit Bull eats about 12 oz. Theoretically she should be eating way more, but she is less active and her metabolism is SLOW!

My plan for the moment is to try and get 4 hens set up in my current back yard, assuming I can get my landlord to agree. Which he probably will. Our yard is small, but there's enough room for a few hens to peck around and run a bit but still be separated from my dogs. We live in town, and our city code won't allow more than 4 hens anyway. Eventually I want to move out onto 11 acres a few miles outside town. My mom lives there currently but is lonely out there alone, so she wants us to build a guest house and move out there with her. I am fine with that! But obviously, assuming we can get permits and such, it will be a while before that happens! My eventual plan is to fence in a good size chunk of the property- at least 1/2 acre- for the chickens to "free range" safely. Both my dogs would be chicken killers, so I can't have the birds loose on the whole property. I'll have to experiment with when I want to cull, how long I want to keep laying hens, etc. It will be a learning experience!

I have a whole shed shelter/range pen idea for the rabbits too.

Depending on the fish you'd want to raise, by the way, you could easily make fish food. Your basic insectivore just needs some bugs raised, blended with some gelatin to hold shape, and voila! Fish food! Despite the fact that my husband and coworkers at the time were appalled, I have made food for my betta fish since I didn't feel the commercial diets were any good. I've had varying amounts of success with that, consistency of the food is an issue! Takes some experimentation to get the gelatin to bug juice ratio right.

 

[myfivegirls]

Oh boy - I figured that out per chicken at one time! but it was too long ago. I never did figure it out as a percentage - more like how many parts of a teaspoon per day per chicken. It also is going to be different depending on what breed, how old, what condition etc. My chickens are OLD and are maniac breed layers - but they have been getting a pretty awesome diet for quite a long time. If you have old chickens that have been getting just chicken feed for their entire lives - I can't tell you what will happen. If you feed the whey and tumeric and cayenne but don't feed them enough protein or other things that are too hard for them to digest - can't say what will happen. I feed a 100% organic and grassfed and wild caught raw diet as the base and STILL the amounts change based upon what's happening in my yard. Right now I have to feed them more of my chicken nugget/crackers because there is no grass so they really need the carotenoids.

I wouldn't ever worry about feeding chickens too much whey. I would offer everything you got. I used tol pretty much cover the sprouts in whey and sprinkle the cayenne and tumeric on top of that at one point. If you are feeding a raw diet with enough raw meat then if the hens aren't laying well or stop laying that means you aren't giving enough of the tumeric, cayenne and/whey.

I hate to be so wishy washy - but this is not an exact science and doubt that it would be even if I did a bunch of research because of different living conditions/environments, other foods, laying rates, age and health of the birds in questions etc. I wish I could be more specific. I guess you could start with an 1/8 of a teaspoon of everything and work your way up from there until you get the results you want? I wouldn't go past a tablespoon per hen though - I can't imagine any hen needing that much. Does that give you some idea?

Thank you for the info!

My oldest hen (Easter Egger) is going to be 3 years in April, and I kept her because she's a great mother. Because she's going broody so many times, she's still laying pretty well. The other "purebred hatchery" hens (breeds in my signature) will be two years old in April. The youngest hens are less than a year old to a few months old, as all but three pullets were bred and hatched from my flock. So, there are all different ages and all different breeds, as well as, six roosters and five ducks eating the same thing as the "girls". I don't know exactly how many chickens total I have, because of them being hatched here by broody hens.

I started fermenting their layer mash the fall of 2012 and grew fodder for them all through the winter until early summer when it became "too much" with hand watering and rinsing. (My set up was not near running water, so had to haul gallon jugs and buckets to do it all. They get food scraps every morning, and have a covered compost area (abt 12'x14') with an additional outside compost area (at least 1,500 sq ft); then, when weather permits, they have rotational paddocks of grass. I can't free range due to predators (mostly dogs) and neighbors/landlord. But, this past summer, I fenced off an extra area (at least doubled their grass area) for them to graze when I was home.

In November 2013, I researched and used Harvey Ussey's book as a guide to make a sprouted whole grain diet. I'm still tweaking it, here and there, but everyone seems to love it.


Ingredient Cups/day % Protien
Premix/Fermented Feed:
3.75% Poultry Minerals (3% ?) 0.75
1.25% Kelp Meal (.04 P) (.5% - 1%) 0.25 0.01
6.25% Fish Meal (.60 P) (5%-6.5%) 1.25 0.75
1.25% Brewer's Yeast (.20 P?) (2% - 9%) 0.25 0.05
7.5% Alfalfa Pellets (.16 P) (5%) 1.5 0.24
Whole/Spouted Grain:
7.5% Small Grain Mix (.12 P) (5%) 1.5 0.18
0% Wheat (.15 P) (25% - 30%) 0 0
min 16.25% Oats (.14 P) (*Not > 15%*) 3.25 0.455
5% Bird Seed (.08 P) (5% - 10%) 1 0.08
min 15% BOSS (.14 -.17 P) (15%) 3 0.42
5% Whole Rye (.12 P) (5%) 1 0.12
10% Whole Flax Seed (.37 P) (3%- 10%) 2 0.74
6.25% Seasame Seed (.19 - .25 P) (5%) 1.25 0.2375
7.5% Lentils (.26 P) (5%) 1.5 0.39
7.5% Whole Peas .(22P) (5%) 1.5 0.33
20 0.200125

The alfalfa pellets are soften in water, and combined together with the dry mix and sprouts.
My first batch I was using 5c. wheat a day, and when I ran out after 1 month, I changed it to not include wheat, since it's very hard to find where I live.


The reason why I have higher protein than what normal layer mash contains is to compensate for the food scraps they eat.

I don't have a source where I could be feeding them raw grass-fed beef every day, though they do get occasional meat scraps.
For right now, the fish meal is what is working for me, although I have heard of being able to get "meat scraps" from a butcher.
I might look into that.

The reason why I asked how much whey, is so that I can know how much to buy, so they can have a some every day.

 

[DorothyH]

I *try* to eat very healthy, but I admit I have a bit of a junk food addiction. I'm much more a stickler about my animals' nutrition!

I know how silly it is, but there you are!

I think I will probably experiment with fermenting vs. sprouting and probably do a mix of both. As I said, I feel like variety is key! At least that is a huge part of making a proper diet for my dogs. The cats are much more picky, so I'm stuck feeding them a variety of canned and freeze dried foods. Just can't get them to eat home cooked or raw, although my boys I can get to eat some premade raw patties and small chicken pieces. The girls say NO WAY. I have four cats and two dogs, a Pit Bull and a Pit Bull/Sighthound X. The bulldog is 54lbs and the sighthound mix is 51. The mix actually eats more than my bulldog, he's got a zippy little metabolism! He eats roughly 1.5lbs of food a day, my Pit Bull eats about 12 oz. Theoretically she should be eating way more, but she is less active and her metabolism is SLOW!

My plan for the moment is to try and get 4 hens set up in my current back yard, assuming I can get my landlord to agree. Which he probably will. Our yard is small, but there's enough room for a few hens to peck around and run a bit but still be separated from my dogs. We live in town, and our city code won't allow more than 4 hens anyway. Eventually I want to move out onto 11 acres a few miles outside town. My mom lives there currently but is lonely out there alone, so she wants us to build a guest house and move out there with her. I am fine with that! But obviously, assuming we can get permits and such, it will be a while before that happens! My eventual plan is to fence in a good size chunk of the property- at least 1/2 acre- for the chickens to "free range" safely. Both my dogs would be chicken killers, so I can't have the birds loose on the whole property. I'll have to experiment with when I want to cull, how long I want to keep laying hens, etc. It will be a learning experience!

I have a whole shed shelter/range pen idea for the rabbits too.

Depending on the fish you'd want to raise, by the way, you could easily make fish food. Your basic insectivore just needs some bugs raised, blended with some gelatin to hold shape, and voila! Fish food! Despite the fact that my husband and coworkers at the time were appalled, I have made food for my betta fish since I didn't feel the commercial diets were any good. I've had varying amounts of success with that, consistency of the food is an issue! Takes some experimentation to get the gelatin to bug juice ratio right.

Sounds like you are going to have a nice place to move to for your sustainability project after construction! That's nice that you will be going to be with your Mom.

Your big dogs do eat more than my little ones, but still little considering their size. Big dogs are generally so much more expensive to feed all raw so at this point I would only get a large dog if it were working and keeping it's keep. I found it very easy to switch any dog over to all raw quickly (can't drive or open refrigerators!

) - even all the sick rescues I took care of seemed to greatly prefer raw food. I love Ziwi Peak because it's grass-fed and easy and the feral cats as well as the dogs do well on it - but not cheap.

Variety is the spice of life. I just think it's important for myself to understand the WHY accurately of including a food especially when determining the percentage. Fermented grains are a side food, a treat, whereas I see sprouts as something that can be the foundation of a chicken diet. The chickens need only a limited amount of the fairly empty carbs of the grains nd don't need that much of bacteria in the liquid if they aren't given antibiotics to destroy their gut bacteria -- except of course if you are using the bacteria as a protein source. If the diet is very low in concentrated protein fermenting just about any raw food could make the difference between protein starvation or not. Fermenting grains takes a great deal more effort than sprouting so I personally see no upside to fermenting in my regime as compared to other ferments it seems like a lot of work for relatively little gain .... again .... in comparison. On the other hand getting the sprouting of grains wrong is more likely and one bad batch of ferment can do a good deal of harm. It seems a better use of my time and resources to add the variety by fermenting dairy or meat or kombucha or other things than to ferment grains because the grains I can grow to make powerhouses of enzymes and protein in themselves and the chickens love the grains that way. The grains themselves will lose something by fermenting whereas the other ferments like dairy and meat lose nothing in the process of fermentation. I at present need things to be pretty easy with the chickens. Fermenting the meat and giving them other ferments that I make for the human flock is the easiest for me and in my view the best for the chickens too. I'm always evaluating risk vs reward and factoring in time and effort and expense. I guess everyone has to do that for themselves in their own situations.

Just food for thought - my way of thinking about fermented grains - just in case it's useful to you.

You know - with the fish that's so far away that I haven't gotten to the point where I've researched food for them much. I will be doing lots more black soldier fly composting this spring so I will have lots of good bugs if I do put in bug eating fish. I didn't know it had to be mixed with anything. I'm going to put your suggestion in a little notebook about the gelatin so that I remember it for when I do eventually maybe get fish going. I know for certain the same way I don't buy dog, cat, chicken food or even prepared food for my bugs! I would never want to buy fish food! If you feed things that are questionable lower down on the food chain they will just get more concentrated as they move up to the top of the food chain - meaning me!

I've never done anything with gelatin. I'm going to have to look up what it is and how to use it. I was thinking with tiny fish I could freeze home-grown bugs, put them in my dehydrator, then powder them and sprinkle them. I don't want big fish - just tiny fish to feed the animals. Is there a reason that wouldn't work? Making sure that I have a good food source is something I do before getting any animal so this will definitely have to be worked out before any fish arrive. Raising the fish would be my way of increasing variety and hopefully being able to cut down on the meat and saving money there. If I can get enough black soldier flies to feed the chickens what they want of those directly that would really help too! Then if there were extra I could feed them to fish and give the chickens/ducks variety that way too. I also thought that it might be lots of fun for the ducks to dive for fish. Seems like it would be such a natural and fun thing for them and entertaining to watch.

Btw - I think it's great that you will be starting with 4 hens. When I had just a few it was very different than having 9 even. Their intensity seems to go up exponentially when you hit a certain number. Learning with a few makes things relaxed and easier. Also, doing special things for just a few in the kitchen is also much easier. It's smart I think to start your chicken process in the city before the country. My suggestion would be to get good laying hens that are best suited to your natural environment. For instance - if I had gotten 3 hens that didn't do well in the heat at the beginning I might not be here talking to you now as the whole thing might have felt and ended quite differently.

I can hear the chickens in the coop - I'm late letting them out - so just HAVE TO stop typing now.

 

[DorothyH]

Thank you for the info!

My oldest hen (Easter Egger) is going to be 3 years in April, and I kept her because she's a great mother. Because she's going broody so many times, she's still laying pretty well. The other "purebred hatchery" hens (breeds in my signature) will be two years old in April. The youngest hens are less than a year old to a few months old, as all but three pullets were bred and hatched from my flock. So, there are all different ages and all different breeds, as well as, six roosters and five ducks eating the same thing as the "girls". I don't know exactly how many chickens total I have, because of them being hatched here by broody hens.

I started fermenting their layer mash the fall of 2012 and grew fodder for them all through the winter until early summer when it became "too much" with hand watering and rinsing. (My set up was not near running water, so had to haul gallon jugs and buckets to do it all. They get food scraps every morning, and have a covered compost area (abt 12'x14') with an additional outside compost area (at least 1,500 sq ft); then, when weather permits, they have rotational paddocks of grass. I can't free range due to predators (mostly dogs) and neighbors/landlord. But, this past summer, I fenced off an extra area (at least doubled their grass area) for them to graze when I was home.

In November 2013, I researched and used Harvey Ussey's book as a guide to make a sprouted whole grain diet. I'm still tweaking it, here and there, but everyone seems to love it.


Ingredient Cups/day % Protien
Premix/Fermented Feed:
3.75% Poultry Minerals (3% ?) 0.75
1.25% Kelp Meal (.04 P) (.5% - 1%) 0.25 0.01
6.25% Fish Meal (.60 P) (5%-6.5%) 1.25 0.75
1.25% Brewer's Yeast (.20 P?) (2% - 9%) 0.25 0.05
7.5% Alfalfa Pellets (.16 P) (5%) 1.5 0.24
Whole/Spouted Grain:
7.5% Small Grain Mix (.12 P) (5%) 1.5 0.18
0% Wheat (.15 P) (25% - 30%) 0 0
min 16.25% Oats (.14 P) (*Not > 15%*) 3.25 0.455
5% Bird Seed (.08 P) (5% - 10%) 1 0.08
min 15% BOSS (.14 -.17 P) (15%) 3 0.42
5% Whole Rye (.12 P) (5%) 1 0.12
10% Whole Flax Seed (.37 P) (3%- 10%) 2 0.74
6.25% Seasame Seed (.19 - .25 P) (5%) 1.25 0.2375
7.5% Lentils (.26 P) (5%) 1.5 0.39
7.5% Whole Peas .(22P) (5%) 1.5 0.33
20 0.200125

The alfalfa pellets are soften in water, and combined together with the dry mix and sprouts.
My first batch I was using 5c. wheat a day, and when I ran out after 1 month, I changed it to not include wheat, since it's very hard to find where I live.


The reason why I have higher protein than what normal layer mash contains is to compensate for the food scraps they eat.

I don't have a source where I could be feeding them raw grass-fed beef every day, though they do get occasional meat scraps.
For right now, the fish meal is what is working for me, although I have heard of being able to get "meat scraps" from a butcher.
I might look into that.

The reason why I asked how much whey, is so that I can know how much to buy, so they can have a some every day.

Wow - now THAT'S SPECIFIC!

Where do you get your fish meal? Is it wild caught and unheated?

Flax is awful to add to a sprout mix because it's so gelatinous and organic whole winter wheat isn't bad to add some I think and I'm confused as to why such a limited variety of seeds to sprout. Whole peas btw are one of the hardest sproutable to source. Bird seed - they don't make that organic do they? Most bird seed mixes wouldn't be sproutable would they? Chickens much prefer the larger seeds to small seeds I find but I occasionally make them some small seed sprouts just for the nutritional variety. The alfalfa pellets are hard to get organic and are used for a source of greens and carotenoids. I prefer to grow greens in my garden and I buy a bigger container of baby greens lettuce than I need wholesale and throw them the rest as soon as it's a little too tired for my snobby taste - they love that.

I guess it all depends on how many chickens you have and what your shopping situation is. Down the road from us is Whole Foods and Costco. I find it easiest and best for my husband just to buy a bag of different seeds each time he shops and mix it into the seed jar and for the chickens to get greens from our fresh raw organic sources that we already have for us to eat and to buy some larger quantities of produce at Costco when we shop there for ourselves. I no longer buy seaweeds in general because of Fukishima - but that's me - but even then I wouldn't feed just kelp because alone it has enough arsenic to be a problem but when mixed with other seaweeds it is no problem at all..... supposedly from my research into human nutrition over the years.

That looks like very little protein to me. Good thing the chickens are getting scraps. Remember - all those feeding guides are designed for chickens to lay well for just 2 years.

In short - doing that kind of measuring and mixing would make me crazy! I also doubt if it's necessary or even beneficial. It seems so rigid that variety is sacrificed. Again though - I have nonly 9 backyard chickens. Doing something like that I guess might be necessary for a larger flock. You can't feed back eggshells and egg whites and giving all sorts of treats to a big flock all the time. I'm constantly out there feeding yummies. Yesterday they got half a dozen persimmons that were just a little too ripe for me for instance.

The things that I think you really MUST get enough of every day are the meat/bugs/whey etc. for concentrated protein and some methionine - because that's the thing that if you don't have enough of will stop their laying on a dime I've found once they are older.

As far as the whey amount to buy issue goes - you didn't say how many chickens you have so I can't tell you - but I still think that starting with 1/1/6 - 1/8 of a teaspoon is a good place to start. The thing is that all your hens are so young that you might not see the results until later. Any birds that are not laying don't really need the whey or herbs. I haven't done any scientific studies - just some pseudo-scientific studies on my own chickens - so the best I can suggest is that you need to do your own experiments as well. Most people will say they know, when they actually do not really know. The most I can do is guess. Your pens might be filled with bugs and grass or might not. It's all too individual. You will know if they are getting enough protein and methionine and a good enough diet if they CONTINUE to lay even when older. With the good diet that they have been early in life and without added toxins, as they get older and stop laying you "should" be able to up the protein and supplements to get them laying again. But remember - I feed them almost 100% raw foods. I also think that makes a big difference. There is no added stress of AGE's and lack of enzymes in the food I give them. I think that's pretty important personally and will always be a factor.

Does that help? This is so hard and I'm being so wordy trying to get my thoughts across.