Is this diet OK for Chickens?

[DorothyH]

Fermenting seeds will pull nutrients out of water into the soak water and the bacteria will be in the soak water too. Only the soak water is then useful or healthful and the seeds are then just mostly empty calories and are to be discarded. Soaking is different than fermenting in water. Soaking and then rinsing and even sprouting will increase nutrition exponentially. Leaving seeds to soak for days is in my opinion not good as it's not logical based upon what I know about making ferments like that.... and using them even for myself.

 

[DorothyH]

Found this thread searching for info on giving whey to chickens and read through it. Found it very helpful. We have goats for our own milk and cheese--give the whey to pigs May to October but wondered if we could give it to chickens the rest of the year--that was answered. Wasn't clear if it made a difference which kind of cheese the whey was left from. Year round we make a quick soft cheese with just vinegar to make it curdle. In late fall we have more time and make several kinds of hard cheese using cultures and rennet. Whey from those cheeses is used to make ricotta but then there is still whey left. Are all these types of whey equally good?

We also raise rabbits--fed forage through the growing season--grasses, weeds, brambles, willow and other woody things, clover etc. This winter we grew fodder out from wheat to feed along with hay, roots, and dried summer forage. Have just begun feeding offal from rabbit butchering to the hens which have been fed commercial feed as well as being in a coop built on a wagon frame with a yard underneath so they're on fresh greens spring through fall. Getting new chicks (from hatchery) this spring and want to raise them without the commercial ground up feed.

So what about feeding chicks naturally from the start? Can they manage the whole grains (wheat and/or oats) from the start if they are sprouted? or soaked in whey or milk? How big do they need to get before they can handle bugs and worms? What does one give them for protein at the start? I already know all the reasons why people recommend a "balanced chick starter feed". My goal is to start a flock fed a different way and hope to propagate our future chickens and that future generations will be better adapted to the more natural feed. Just trying to get started.

You're doing great Rainey! I would use all those whey products for the chickens. Sounds wonderful as does the the offal from the rabbits, just remember that rabbits are generally pretty low in fat so you might want to add another good fat source. Maybe black soldier fly larvae if you live in an area where they are native?

I've only hatched a small batch of chicks for someone else but I was able to feed them really tiny bugs a couple days after being born as well as finely chopped raw meat. Just sprout them tiny seeds like millet instead of the bigger seeds. The baby chicks just can't handle an overabundance of calcium and that's why they shouldn't be fed adult hen food, but you'd be amazed at what they can eat even when they are super tiny. "Balanced" chick food is probably just about the same as "balanced" hen food which means rancid ground seeds with lots of vitamins in it. Ha! Even at the youngest of age they are meant to eat bugs, just ones that are smaller. I would love to have generations of chickens fed a good raw species-specific diet. I bet your flock is going to be incredibly strong!

I wish you all the best.

 

[myfivegirls]

I know this isn't a frequently updated thread, but since I posted in January 2014 - I've made some changes, although not as much raw species-specific as DorothyH does.

We ended up moving, so now we have a totally different set-up for the chickens. Now, I have rotational grass paddocks, and multiple coops / breeding groups.
Still composting, feeding scraps, and making fermented feed. No longer using burlaps bags for sprouts, as after all summer of using them, they started to get holes and it was way too much work.
So, now, I just soak the whole grains in water, rinse & feed (after combining with the FF bucket).
Ended up doing a re-evaluation of the whole no-soy, low-corn diet & I was loosing money way too fast, and working way too hard.

So, what DorothyH said to me was pretty accurate, it just took me several more months to realize it!
But, it's all good, as it's was a good experiment, and I'm still learning every day!

I still use supplements, some organic ingredients / whole grains, but had to revert to fermenting
the cheap layer mash & chick starter (hatching & raising lots of chicks again) for simplicity.
Have been using flaxmeal, not flaxseed - which is easier to mix with what I'm doing, although I believe it's the by-product of flaxseed oil.

I did use cayenne, tumeric & whey for quite a few months, but it was hard to know how much I should use.
And since I had a large mixed-age flock, once I ran out of those ingredients, I haven't re-sourced them.

Still haven't found a good source of raw meat. The mealworms did good last year until it got really humid, just after I has started feeding them,
ended up getting grain mites & had to feed them all to the chickens. But, I think they're finding a good amount of bugs in the compost and when
they go into a new grass paddock (every 1 -2 days).

I do have one group of chicks being raised by a broody who forage most of the day, and are doing quiet well,
except aren't growing as fast as those who are eating the fermented feed chick starter.
Last year's plan for an all-purpose flock feed actually ended up being separate feeds for the chicks and adults.
Then, in an effort to encourage more foraging, I didn't increase their prepared feed amount accordingly to the increase in flock #'s.
I did increase it, but not "enough" & many hens molted and stopped laying through the summer.
Once I adjusted that in the fall, & they started getting more prepared feed, they started laying better again.

I think the biggest challenge for me is being able to good sources for either the way DorothyH feeds her flock,
and/or making the compost work so that it's a "complete feed" like Carl Hammer's Vermont Composting.
And, right now I'm having a hard time getting more of the Organic feed ingredients, since we're several hours away
from the company & the people who were ordering every 1 -2 months last year haven't gotten any feed recently!

Now that they have grass and greens again (long winter), I've switched to feeding a few of the groups the fermented feed only in the evening.
In the morning, they just get food scraps & have to forage the rest of their food. So far so good, but time will tell if this works.

So, maybe it's time to re-think this all again and stream-line it, while making it more nutritious and healthy for everyone!

What I'd like to be able to do is try feeding one of the groups solely on compost / food scraps like DorothyH said.
Then, hatch out their eggs, hopefully raise them via a broody hen - all on compost / food scraps / grass - and see how they do.
Plus, get back into using dairy as part of their food.

 

[DorothyH]

Sounds like you're doing great Myfivegirls!

I've actually been having a horrible time. My husband got sick and after his surgery I saw a bag of Coyote Creek Organic Layer Feed at Whole Foods and thought to myself how much easier that would be while I was so distracted. I needed every available minute. I figured a short time on chicken food wouldn't hurt. I bought a bag and started feeding this to my then flock of very old hens who were all super healthy and laying really well even though they were "too old" to lay. Long story short... 3 of my 8 girls died from it! The others aren't feeling great either but they seem likely to survive. They got sick very fast from the chicken food, but died slowly. It was an absolutely horrific experience. It wreaked havoc on their digestive system. They were just too old and used to super high quality raw food to take that big of a swing into junk food I guess.

Last time (many years ago) I used another chicken food to feed them one died and I almost lost my oldest hen. I should have learned my lesson then. This time I think my oldest hen knew better than to eat the junk food since she almost died of it before and didn't actually eat much of the chicken food so luckily seems ok now. The ones that tended not to eat the food and go off and forage instead are the ones that survived.

I will never, ever, ever, ever feed chickens chicken food again! Even the best of the best organic is just garbage and poison. Super-heated toxic oils, powdered chemical "vitamins" from a lab, seeds that have been crushed and therefore rancid. You don't even really understand it until you get away from it because everyone thinks chickens are supposed to stop laying, get sick and die at young ages and molt too! When I feed correctly, my chickens don't molt and never stop laying. Making this mistake ... I feel so darn stupid! And... why does the FAVORITE one always die first.

At least now I know something 100% with all of my being. It was at such a large a cost though. No other chicken of mine will every go through what my poor girls just went through again. I'm convinced now that feeding a good quality dog food would be better than chicken food! I could have probably bought just about any actual real food from the store and they would have been better off. If I fed them nothing but fruit or hamburger or whatever they would have at least survived. Sigh

Sometimes knowledge can be costly... I hope this post helps others not to have to go through the same thing or at least to maybe think about what they are actually feeding with chicken food. Soaking seeds really isn't hard... hospitalizations aside... and soaking the most expensive human grade organic seeds COSTS less than the so-called high quality chicken feeds. I should have fed them ANYTHING else when I was unable to soak for them. I suggest that you feed just anything else besides chicken food too. No other food or experiment that I've tried has been as bad as chicken food.

 

[myfivegirls]

Sounds like you're doing great Myfivegirls!

I've actually been having a horrible time. My husband got sick and after his surgery I saw a bag of Coyote Creek Organic Layer Feed at Whole Foods and thought to myself how much easier that would be while I was so distracted. I needed every available minute. I figured a short time on chicken food wouldn't hurt. I bought a bag and started feeding this to my then flock of very old hens who were all super healthy and laying really well even though they were "too old" to lay. Long story short... 3 of my 8 girls died from it! The others aren't feeling great either but they seem likely to survive. They got sick very fast from the chicken food, but died slowly. It was an absolutely horrific experience. It wreaked havoc on their digestive system. They were just too old and used to super high quality raw food to take that big of a swing into junk food I guess.

Last time (many years ago) I used another chicken food to feed them one died and I almost lost my oldest hen. I should have learned my lesson then. This time I think my oldest hen knew better than to eat the junk food since she almost died of it before and didn't actually eat much of the chicken food so luckily seems ok now. The ones that tended not to eat the food and go off and forage instead are the ones that survived.

I will never, ever, ever, ever feed chickens chicken food again! Even the best of the best organic is just garbage and poison. Super-heated toxic oils, powdered chemical "vitamins" from a lab, seeds that have been crushed and therefore rancid. You don't even really understand it until you get away from it because everyone thinks chickens are supposed to stop laying, get sick and die at young ages and molt too! When I feed correctly, my chickens don't molt and never stop laying. Making this mistake ... I feel so darn stupid! And... why does the FAVORITE one always die first.

At least now I know something 100% with all of my being. It was at such a large a cost though. No other chicken of mine will every go through what my poor girls just went through again. I'm convinced now that feeding a good quality dog food would be better than chicken food! I could have probably bought just about any actual real food from the store and they would have been better off. If I fed them nothing but fruit or hamburger or whatever they would have at least survived. Sigh

Sometimes knowledge can be costly... I hope this post helps others not to have to go through the same thing or at least to maybe think about what they are actually feeding with chicken food. Soaking seeds really isn't hard... hospitalizations aside... and soaking the most expensive human grade organic seeds COSTS less than the so-called high quality chicken feeds. I should have fed them ANYTHING else when I was unable to soak for them. I suggest that you feed just anything else besides chicken food too. No other food or experiment that I've tried has been as bad as chicken food.

Sorry for your loss.

I've had that happen several times when I've made mistakes and paid for them dearly, sometimes costly the life of one or more of the chickens.

I've had a similar experience when I weaned myself off sugar. Now, if I just eat a tiny bit of sugar, I get sick - sore throat, cold/sinus, etc.

And it's probably the same with chicken feed - they don't know it's really bad for them, until they've had the same toxins over and over again for years. So, by the time they're old (or in they're case, just a few years old), they molt, stop laying, get health issues and die. But, if they stop eating the junk food and start eating real food - if they eat junk food for just a short time, it wrecks havoc with their system.
For me, anyways, they usually go in freezer or go to another home before they get old enough to start showing those signs.
But, since some of the goals for which I'm breeding the Catskill Homesteaders is for foraging abilities, I'd like to put that to the test, even though it would't be a fence-less free-range experiment.
The neighbor's dog would make quick work of them, so instead I just do the best to my ability with what I have.

 

[FoxySonia]

I do what you do with some differenes and I have 6 year and maybe older (lost count) hens that are still laying like when I got them as spring chickens. They don't molt and they never stop laying in the intense 100 degree weather we have all summer of the 20 degree cold we're having this winter. The only time I've lost hens or had molts is when I DIDN'T do what you're doing.

I soak a large variety of raw organic seeds - meaning I let them sit in water overnight and rinse to get rid of enzyme inhibitors and increase nutrient content dramatically and make them even more yummy.

I feed my chickens raw grass-fed ground up cow including the organs. At least an ounce a day per chicken. This gives them the fat and protein and many other elements necessary to give birth every day and to provide me with the "perfect" protein. They can't find enough bugs to provide sufficient protein here (and it would be rare place they could) and the soaked seeds are only 30% protein - not enough. I give them extra raw suet in the summer. Sometimes I through them whole small wild-caughtfish and they are a hoot to watch as they tear it apart. Chickens are carnivores and especially layers that need tremendous amounts of quality raw protein every day to continue to lay. Fat and protein are not a problem if they are in their natural raw state and if the meat is from animals that are get a proper raw species specific diet themselves. I only will give grass-fed and wild caught raw meat to my birds and live WELL-FED or wild bugs. It is the fats in particular that gets so easily de-natured with heat and very hard for their bodies to process so if I feed them anything cooked it's the vegetables but never fat. My chickens get lots of fat and are thriving because it's great quality raw fat.

Besides the soaking of the seeds the most important thing you are missing is a good methionine source. Egg whites are one of the very best sources for methionine in the human diet so the chickens absolutely have to have enough in order to lay eggs all the time. We've bred the chickens to do an unnatural thing. No bird is going to lay hundreds of eggs in the wild every year! So you have to give them a good source of methionine if they are going to be able to continue to lay. The only other good source besides feeding the chickens back their own eggs whites (which is what I do) that I've been able to come up with is to provide the chickens with whey. That's the only other food source that I've found that has a high enough methionine content. It also is a generally great source of protein and other nutrients. Methionine is so incredibly important that even if you can't find raw or grass-fed - they still will need it.

If you want to go one step further then add in some cayenne and tumeric powder (especially in the winter) not only to provide natural carotenoids which are so necessary for being able to continue to lay, but also will prevent the most common of diseases and help to keep your hens amazingly healthy - at least that works for mine! I know quite a bit about herbalism and those two powders are what I make sure my chickens get. I actually grow my own cayenne for them. Birds don't taste hot spicy like we do and just love the taste of cayenne and can eat bucket loads and never say ouch.

Oh - and don't forget to dry out your eggs shells, crush them and feed them back to the chickens to not deplete their minerals. Seaweeds are great too, but giving them back their own eggs if possible is the best. Oyster shells and seaweed go on top of their eggshells if you can. If you don't have a dehydrator you can just wash them and air dry them on your countertop. I like my dehydrator because then I don't wash them and the coating of egg whites dry inside and they get that back too.

I personally think you are on the path to having the best diet possible for chickens that I've been able to figure out and I've been experimenting with this for quite a few years. Bravo!

Oh - and btw - soaked whole organic wheatberries are very different than ground up dry stuff. Wheat grass and wheatberry sprouts are definitely in my sprout mixes.

I however do not use flax or chia in my sprouting every day because they are so glutinous. I use those in making special treats in my dehydrator that include the cayenne, tumeric, powered eggs shells and other sundries. The glutinous nature of soaking those seeds make them perfect for holding together the "chicken crackers or nuggets" as I like to call them but are a pain to rinse and feed with other seeds. I do however add a much larger variety of seeds than you do even including sprouted brown rice. I do not add any beans and my chickens don't care for lentils much so I don't use those.

This method of feeding doesn't make much sense on a farm with a large number of animals but for me in my small yard it has made it so that I never have to cull or get more chickens which given my small space and my attachment to my pets and the absolutely incredible quality of the eggs and health of the chickens makes it worth it for me.

I've never seen egg yolks the color that mine are or have had an egg that tastes anything like mine or known of other hens that keep on laying all the time even when elderly. Most people don't want to go through the trouble and expense but since you are already on your way you might like to step it up just a notch and get all the long-term benefits.

Again, kudos to you!

DorothyH, wow, I love what you feed your chickens. I would love to give my chickens a similar diet, but sounds like it would be quite expensive buying all those seeds and the grass feed beef. But I'd like to try. Can you share a list of the grains and other ingredients you use for your chicken feed, and where you get them? Also, could you please share how you make the suet and treats? I would relaly appreciate it.

I live in NY and have a small yard, so can't really have a vegetable garden and don't get much grass. I live by myself so I don't cook often. I currently have 8 chickens but plan on getting some more. I feed them Scratch and Peck Organic Chicken Feed, salad greens and vegetables, occasionally fruit, mealworms, grubs, scratch corn, warm porridge made with a mix of grans and seeds that I mix together (include old fashion oats, ground corn, flax seeds, pumpkin seeds, barley, wheat), sometimes I give them canned salmon or saldines, scrambled eggs with the shell, leftover cooked meat and rice, on rare occasions I might give them bread or canned corn. I spend more money on feeding my chickens than on feeding myself, even though I'm on a very limited income.

I would appreciate your suggestions on how I can improve their diet without spending a fortune. Thank you,
Sonia

 

[Kiki]

DorothyH, wow, I love what you feed your chickens. I would love to give my chickens a similar diet, but sounds like it would be quite expensive buying all those seeds and the grass feed beef. But I'd like to try. Can you share a list of the grains and other ingredients you use for your chicken feed, and where you get them? Also, could you please share how you make the suet and treats? I would relaly appreciate it.

I live in NY and have a small yard, so can't really have a vegetable garden and don't get much grass. I live by myself so I don't cook often. I currently have 8 chickens but plan on getting some more. I feed them Scratch and Peck Organic Chicken Feed, salad greens and vegetables, occasionally fruit, mealworms, grubs, scratch corn, warm porridge made with a mix of grans and seeds that I mix together (include old fashion oats, ground corn, flax seeds, pumpkin seeds, barley, wheat), sometimes I give them canned salmon or saldines, scrambled eggs with the shell, leftover cooked meat and rice, on rare occasions I might give them bread or canned corn. I spend more money on feeding my chickens than on feeding myself, even though I'm on a very limited income.

I would appreciate your suggestions on how I can improve their diet without spending a fortune. Thank you,
Sonia

How old are your birds?
I'm guessing young but if you don't change the way you feed them soon you will most end likely up with problems.



Your chickens would do better if you stopped giving them so many treats and just fed them a complete balanced diet.
A complete balanced diet is a commercially made pellet or crumble age appropriate poultry feed.

 

[Michelle_Mel]

I do what you do with some differenes and I have 6 year and maybe older (lost count) hens that are still laying like when I got them as spring chickens. They don't molt and they never stop laying in the intense 100 degree weather we have all summer of the 20 degree cold we're having this winter. The only time I've lost hens or had molts is when I DIDN'T do what you're doing.

I soak a large variety of raw organic seeds - meaning I let them sit in water overnight and rinse to get rid of enzyme inhibitors and increase nutrient content dramatically and make them even more yummy.

I feed my chickens raw grass-fed ground up cow including the organs. At least an ounce a day per chicken. This gives them the fat and protein and many other elements necessary to give birth every day and to provide me with the "perfect" protein. They can't find enough bugs to provide sufficient protein here (and it would be rare place they could) and the soaked seeds are only 30% protein - not enough. I give them extra raw suet in the summer. Sometimes I through them whole small wild-caughtfish and they are a hoot to watch as they tear it apart. Chickens are carnivores and especially layers that need tremendous amounts of quality raw protein every day to continue to lay. Fat and protein are not a problem if they are in their natural raw state and if the meat is from animals that are get a proper raw species specific diet themselves. I only will give grass-fed and wild caught raw meat to my birds and live WELL-FED or wild bugs. It is the fats in particular that gets so easily de-natured with heat and very hard for their bodies to process so if I feed them anything cooked it's the vegetables but never fat. My chickens get lots of fat and are thriving because it's great quality raw fat.

Besides the soaking of the seeds the most important thing you are missing is a good methionine source. Egg whites are one of the very best sources for methionine in the human diet so the chickens absolutely have to have enough in order to lay eggs all the time. We've bred the chickens to do an unnatural thing. No bird is going to lay hundreds of eggs in the wild every year! So you have to give them a good source of methionine if they are going to be able to continue to lay. The only other good source besides feeding the chickens back their own eggs whites (which is what I do) that I've been able to come up with is to provide the chickens with whey. That's the only other food source that I've found that has a high enough methionine content. It also is a generally great source of protein and other nutrients. Methionine is so incredibly important that even if you can't find raw or grass-fed - they still will need it.

If you want to go one step further then add in some cayenne and tumeric powder (especially in the winter) not only to provide natural carotenoids which are so necessary for being able to continue to lay, but also will prevent the most common of diseases and help to keep your hens amazingly healthy - at least that works for mine! I know quite a bit about herbalism and those two powders are what I make sure my chickens get. I actually grow my own cayenne for them. Birds don't taste hot spicy like we do and just love the taste of cayenne and can eat bucket loads and never say ouch.

Oh - and don't forget to dry out your eggs shells, crush them and feed them back to the chickens to not deplete their minerals. Seaweeds are great too, but giving them back their own eggs if possible is the best. Oyster shells and seaweed go on top of their eggshells if you can. If you don't have a dehydrator you can just wash them and air dry them on your countertop. I like my dehydrator because then I don't wash them and the coating of egg whites dry inside and they get that back too.

I personally think you are on the path to having the best diet possible for chickens that I've been able to figure out and I've been experimenting with this for quite a few years. Bravo!

Oh - and btw - soaked whole organic wheatberries are very different than ground up dry stuff. Wheat grass and wheatberry sprouts are definitely in my sprout mixes.

I however do not use flax or chia in my sprouting every day because they are so glutinous. I use those in making special treats in my dehydrator that include the cayenne, tumeric, powered eggs shells and other sundries. The glutinous nature of soaking those seeds make them perfect for holding together the "chicken crackers or nuggets" as I like to call them but are a pain to rinse and feed with other seeds. I do however add a much larger variety of seeds than you do even including sprouted brown rice. I do not add any beans and my chickens don't care for lentils much so I don't use those.

This method of feeding doesn't make much sense on a farm with a large number of animals but for me in my small yard it has made it so that I never have to cull or get more chickens which given my small space and my attachment to my pets and the absolutely incredible quality of the eggs and health of the chickens makes it worth it for me.

I've never seen egg yolks the color that mine are or have had an egg that tastes anything like mine or known of other hens that keep on laying all the time even when elderly. Most people don't want to go through the trouble and expense but since you are already on your way you might like to step it up just a notch and get all the long-term benefits.

Again, kudos to you!

I know this is an old thread but hopefully you can help me. I wondered if the egg whites that you give your chickens are raw or cooked? And what type of whey do you use? I’m only familiar with the powdered stuff. TY

 

[FoxySonia]

How old are your birds?
I'm guessing young but if you don't change the way you feed them soon you will most end likely up with problems.



Your chickens would do better if you stopped giving them so many treats and just fed them a complete balanced diet.
A complete balanced diet is a commercially made pellet or crumble age appropriate poultry feed.

7 of my 8 chickens are 7 months old, the d'Uccle will be 7 months old in 8 days. None of my 6 pullets have started laying eggs yet. They eat mainly the Scratch and Peck Organic 18% Protein Layer Chicken Feed which is corn and soy free. They were on the grower feed from the same brand until a month ago. The treats I give them in moderation after they have eaten their fill of the commercial feed mentioned above, I purchase the 40 lb bag from Chewy.

https://www.scratchandpeck.com/shop/naturally-free-organic-layer-18/