IS too much calcium bad?

[Nambroth]

What are you feeding?
Your feed could be lacking something that your rooster/s are looking for.
If you put Apple Cider Vinegar in there water they could be taking in the extra Calcium to neutralize the amount of Acid that is in there system.
Much like someone taking Tums for heartburn or acid stomach.

Chris

I am feeding Countryside's Broiler, with calcium offered on the side (separately) via crushed oyster shell. I offer a variety of greens from my garden such as chard, arugula, etc. They also range for at least a few hours each day and feed heavily during this time (I am rural and my yard is more of a slightly controlled field).

Here's their label:
Crude protein, minimum..............................................19.00%
Crude fat, minimum.......................................................2.00%
Crude fiber, maximum...................................................6.00%

INGREDIENTS
Organic Field Peas, Organic Corn, Organic Wheat, Organic Oats, Fish Meal, Organic Rice Bran, Organic Alfalfa Meal, Organic Flaxseed, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Silico Aluminate, Dried Organic Kelp, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Yeast Culture, Roughage Product (organic wheat middlings), Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Menadione Nicotinamide Bisulfite Complex, D-Calcium Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Extract, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Dried fermentation product of Lactobacillus acidophilus, Dried fermentation product of Lactobacillus casei, , Dried fermentation product of Lactobacillus plantarum, Dried fermentation product of Enterococcus faecium, Dried fermentation product of Bacillus coagulans, Dried fermentation product of Bacillus licheniformis, and Dried fermentation product of Bacillus subtilis.


I do add a bit of ACV-- not much-- to the water in the summer months but have stopped in the last month because of the cooler temperatures. All of my hens (save one) will positively try to feast on the calcium at times, and my rooster does too. Except one hen that won't take the calcium, I make a special mash with pulverized oyster shell and oatmeal for her because her eggs get thin otherwise. Should I trust that my birds know what they are getting or should I intervene more than I do? I've noticed that my birds are very drawn to eating anything small and abnormally colored, such as white (oyster shell)-- much to my grief sometimes as they love to find bits of plastic in the soil from past families living here.

 

[Chris09]

I am feeding Countryside's Broiler, with calcium offered on the side (separately) via crushed oyster shell. I offer a variety of greens from my garden such as chard, arugula, etc. They also range for at least a few hours each day and feed heavily during this time (I am rural and my yard is more of a slightly controlled field).

Here's their label:
Crude protein, minimum..............................................19.00%
Crude fat, minimum.......................................................2.00%
Crude fiber, maximum...................................................6.00%

INGREDIENTS
Organic Field Peas, Organic Corn, Organic Wheat, Organic Oats, Fish Meal, Organic Rice Bran, Organic Alfalfa Meal, Organic Flaxseed, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Silico Aluminate, Dried Organic Kelp, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Yeast Culture, Roughage Product (organic wheat middlings), Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Menadione Nicotinamide Bisulfite Complex, D-Calcium Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Extract, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Dried fermentation product of Lactobacillus acidophilus, Dried fermentation product of Lactobacillus casei, , Dried fermentation product of Lactobacillus plantarum, Dried fermentation product of Enterococcus faecium, Dried fermentation product of Bacillus coagulans, Dried fermentation product of Bacillus licheniformis, and Dried fermentation product of Bacillus subtilis.


I do add a bit of ACV-- not much-- to the water in the summer months but have stopped in the last month because of the cooler temperatures. All of my hens (save one) will positively try to feast on the calcium at times, and my rooster does too. Except one hen that won't take the calcium, I make a special mash with pulverized oyster shell and oatmeal for her because her eggs get thin otherwise. Should I trust that my birds know what they are getting or should I intervene more than I do? I've noticed that my birds are very drawn to eating anything small and abnormally colored, such as white (oyster shell)-- much to my grief sometimes as they love to find bits of plastic in the soil from past families living here.

I would be willing to bet after a few months of not putting ACV in the water that the need for Calcium will drop.
Poultry (chicken) blood pH should be 7.35 to 7.45 (7.0 is neutral, 0.0 is acid and 14.0 is base).
Buy adding a acid (ACV) in there water you are forcing the blood pH to go down (get more acidic) and so the chicken must consume more Calcium to neutralize to acid in its system.

Should you trust your birds and there knowledge of what they need, yes you should.
Your birds knew that there blood pH is off and that they needed more Calcium in there diet to get there blood pH back to where it should be. In turn they ate more Calcium.

Chris

 

[TracyLovesDucks]

I would be willing to bet after a few months of not putting ACV in the water that the need for Calcium will drop.
Poultry (chicken) blood pH should be 7.35 to 7.45 (7.0 is neutral, 0.0 is acid and 14.0 is base).
Buy adding a acid (ACV) in there water you are forcing the blood pH to go down (get more acidic) and so the chicken must consume more Calcium to neutralize to acid in its system.

Should you trust your birds and there knowledge of what they need, yes you should.
Your birds knew that there blood pH is off and that they needed more Calcium in there diet to get there blood pH back to where it should be. In turn they ate more Calcium.

Chris

The pH of the body is different in different areas. I'm speaking from my knowledge of human physiology, but the desired blood pH differs from the pH of the digestive tract for example. Consuming acidic foods (with low pH like ACV and fermented veggies) has a balancing effect on the body - it acidifies where needed (digestive tract), and alkalizes where needed (blood).

I also heard and believe that heartburn can arise from too high pH in the digestive system (meaning that it's too alkaline), so the esophageal sphincter is not signaled to constrict, therefore stomach acid can enter the esophagus. Consuming ACV has even been recommended to stop heartburn (acidifying the stomach juices and hence signaling the sphincter to constrict).

Many folks give raw ACV to their flock and experience benefits rather than detriments, so I would suggest anyone does a little more research before ascribing to the claim that birds get something similar to heartburn and eat an abundance of calcium to reduce it.



Does anyone know what other symptoms are present when a bird gets too much calcium (in addition to the weird egg shells)?

 

[Chris09]

The pH of the body is different in different areas. I'm speaking from my knowledge of human physiology, but the desired blood pH differs from the pH of the digestive tract for example. Consuming acidic foods (with low pH like ACV and fermented veggies) has a balancing effect on the body - it acidifies where needed (digestive tract), and alkalizes where needed (blood).

I also heard and believe that heartburn can arise from too high pH in the digestive system (meaning that it's too alkaline), so the esophageal sphincter is not signaled to constrict, therefore stomach acid can enter the esophagus. Consuming ACV has even been recommended to stop heartburn (acidifying the stomach juices and hence signaling the sphincter to constrict).

Many folks give raw ACV to their flock and experience benefits rather than detriments, so I would suggest anyone does a little more research before ascribing to the claim that birds get something similar to heartburn and eat an abundance of calcium to reduce it.



Does anyone know what other symptoms are present when a bird gets too much calcium (in addition to the weird egg shells)?

Yes do a little research because Human physiology and Poultry physiology are to very different things.

Poultry are very sensitive animals to blood acid- base disorders and any fluctuation in the pH of there diet can trigger disorders.
As stated before the blood pH of poultry should be 7.35 to 7.45. (that is blood pH not digestive track or stomach acid pH etc.)

Quote: Too much calcium can cause a number of problems including stones, Metabolic alkalosis and Gout.

 

[TracyLovesDucks]

Yes do a little research because Human physiology and Poultry physiology are to very different things.

Too much calcium can cause a number of problems including stones, Metabolic alkalosis and Gout.

Indeed.
Thanks!

 

[CrazyTalk]

Too much calcium can cause a number of problems including stones, Metabolic alkalosis and Gout.

We've had this argument before, so I'll just say one thing - the studies show no correlation between calcium intake and stone formation or gout. They show a huge correlation between hormone levels and stone formation.

 

[Chris09]

We've had this argument before, so I'll just say one thing - the studies show no correlation between calcium intake and stone formation or gout. They show a huge correlation between hormone levels and stone formation.

Quote:

Quote:

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/pou...poultry/urate_deposition_gout_in_poultry.html

Urolithiasis is common in older laying chickens. It is characterized by severe atrophy of one or both kidneys with distended ureters often containing brittle, white, staghorn calcium urate calculi or uroliths. Most cases are due to feeding high-calcium laying feed to hens not in egg production, infection with infectious bronchitis virus, or severe vitamin A deficiency. If blockage is complete, acute postrenal failure develops, and birds die with visceral urate deposition. If blockage is incomplete or unilateral, chickens survive in compensated renal failure, and articular urate deposits may develop.


Quote:
Quote: Death - due to kidney failure deposition of urates on joints Laying hens fed high level of calcium

• Gout is a not disease condition, but a clinical sings of severe kidney dysfunction.
• Characterized by presence of high level of uric acid in the blood.
• Deposition of urates on the surface of various internal organs or joints (especially hock joint).
• Death is due to kidney failure.
• It is a main problem of laying hens fed high level of calcium.
• Two distinct forms are there visceral gout and articular gout.

Are these good enough for you are should I find more for your?

The one article was thrown in there to show that non-laying hens can also have problems with high calcium.....

 

[CrazyTalk]

No, because none of them are actually studying feed. Manuals and fact sheets don't count as studies. Articles don't count as studies - too many people just repeat whatever they hear, or whatever they're told, and don't actually check references.


The fact that stones are made of calcium does not mean that excess calcium causes them - correlation does not equal correlation.

Every controlled study I have found comparing adult birds on high calcium diets and low calcium diets has shown no difference in rates of uroliths, or kidney function. Every controlled study I have seen has shown ubiquitous presence of uroliths in older birds, whether they were fed low calcium diets or not.

This is not true of immature birds, who definitely should not be fed excess calcium.


For instance:
Quote: Calcium intake is somewhat self limiting - when the bird doesn't get enough, the gut acidifies, and more of what the bird eats is absorbed. When the bird gets too much, the gut gets more alkaline, less is dissolved in the gut, etc. Calcium intake has almost no effect on blood calcium levels until you get significantly into deficiency ranges.

And this one:
Quote:

We can argue about this all day - so it's a waste of time. I can keep posting studies showing no correlations between high calcium feeds and stones, and you'll keep posting studies that don't mention feed at all, papers about how gout affects poultry, and papers showing that uroliths cause low fertility. We've been through this before.

OP, you really need to do your own research here, and make up your own mind.

 

[Chris09]

No, because none of them are actually studying feed. Manuals and fact sheets don't count as studies. Articles don't count as studies - too many people just repeat whatever they hear, or whatever they're told, and don't actually check references.

The first link is a dead end and the page doesn't open.

This link -
http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/124/6/821.full.pdf

Is a research paper based on a study, not much different than my links (that are based on studies)

 

[dfalchek]

Chris09... you have such a long history of misleading people on feed. I see your posts and distinctive logo on many feed-related threads. Here I see you making false claims about feed containing animal protein, even AFTER acknowledging in other threads BEFORE this post that this is not the case. You continue to spread information you know is false. Months before this piece you say regarding GameBird
"Purina is digging a hole that they are not going to be able to get out of.
They keep reducing the products that they have with animal protein and there going to end up at the bottom of the pile like ADM and Kalumdach."
Yet, here you are, pimping Purina as animal protien containing (which you always knew was a lie). I can't not begin to imagine you would dedicate yourself to anonymously mislead good people, asking for help an advice, in a forum like this. For what reason? The Internet remembers everything.