ISABELLE LEGHORNS IN USA!

[DMRippy]

Ooh, I think you're right. I'm confusing blue genetics with lavender genetics. Thank you for correcting me @DMRippy ! Your comments are feather quality are absolutely correct. I've been culling HARD to correct poor feather quality in my flock.

The BIGGEST MISTAKE newbies make is wanting just lavender birds and requesting only the lavender chicks. What a HUGE mistake. How can you improve them when you can really see what they are lacking because of the color. Another mistake is just buying from one breeder. Breeding brother and sister will only exacerbate any issues the birds have. The only time you breed siblings is when you are trying to SET a trait in a breed and you don't do that for long.

 

[ChicKat]

We are using the lavender gene to dilute the underlying colors. Lavender dilutes black to grey and red to cream. Black birds with two copies of the lavender gene are solid gray and are referred to as "lavender", such as lavender Orpingtons or lavender Ameraucanas. Brown birds with two copies of the lavender gene are grey with cream and are referred to as "Isabel", such as Isabel Leghorns. They are also sometimes referred to as "Isabel brown". The more vibrant the underlying line of birds is, the more vibrant the Isabel will be. I've read that lavender continues to dilute, that after a number of generations of breeding only lavender to lavender, your lavender birds will become almost white. Therefor breeders utilizing the lavender gene continue to cross back to the underlying color to keep the lavender color vibrant. I have no personal experience with the speed of dilution of breeding only isabels to isabels. I've been crossing back to base every other generation. I create splits, use those splits to create isabels, then take those isabels back to browns to create splits again.

Thank you! The colors are so beautiful, however they are subtle, and I have seen diluted lavender chickens that do look too pale and kind of like just a white with a tinge of gray. Not Isabels mind you, just solid lav.

 

[ChicKat]

I don't think Lavender dilutes to almost white. Splash will do that after several generations.

Hmmm - I got this lavender dilutes info from some web googling and not from first hand information. Add to that, logically, I haven't heard that splash does that - so the genetic behavior of dilution is/can be cumulative I guess.

The phrase is back to black but that always applies to any lavender. In this case back to browns. Breeding lavender to lavender is just not a good idea over any long period of time. You will get your best Isabelles from splits to splits. At the very least you should breed Split over lavender and every few years back to a pure brown. There are 2 good reason for this. 1 Lavender affects feather quality. The Lavender gene is a brittle feather gene and will cause breakage of the feathers and fretting (a mark that almost looks like a bruise in a line on the feathers). The 2nd and BIGGEST reason you keep going back to the base color is that bird is usually more to the TYPE of the breed. So going back to the base color (brown in this case) is to improve type and color so the lavender version will be the best it can be. Anyone that ever buys any of my lavender birds is REQUIRED to buy some splits. I never sell just one or the other and I ALWAYS run both splits and lavenders together to keep improving the over all bird.

What I have heard is that the brittle feathers caused by the dilution is a recessive genetic condition that only shows up on male wings, and in females it doesn't show. As such, if true, that recessive could be bred out of a line but it would be very hard to do.

I don't comment on here very much but I will say I see a LOT of birds with very poor type. The one thing I see over and over is wings pointing down and not held up high and tight to the body. If you don't have an SOP get one and follow the type of Leghorns. You can download OLD SOP and trust me the type is the same. There are usually illustrations. These are a PROJECT and everyone's birds need some work but those wings are KILLING ME! I know color is not quite right yet but getting that right is just going to take some time.
I rather wish you would comment more - you have a lot to share with us.

Candace this was in no way directed at you... just wanted to add to what you already said.
Regarding type, most beginners don't 'see' type. In the show cage, type is number 1 in importance. I have some Leghorns from CJ Waldon and they are gorgeous - and these and the ones I got from Cree57i are really good examples of type. Buddy Henry supplied his breeding program to get the needed type in Isabel leghorns - I will copy and paste it here in a post.

Ooh, I think you're right. I'm confusing blue genetics with lavender genetics. Thank you for correcting me @DMRippy ! Your comments are feather quality are absolutely correct. I've been culling HARD to correct poor feather quality in my flock.

FWIW, I'm going to put in a vote that it affects both.

The BIGGEST MISTAKE newbies make is wanting just lavender birds and requesting only the lavender chicks. What a HUGE mistake. How can you improve them when you can really see what they are lacking because of the color. Another mistake is just buying from one breeder. Breeding brother and sister will only exacerbate any issues the birds have. The only time you breed siblings is when you are trying to SET a trait in a breed and you don't do that for long.

Next fall, I may breed some siblings and half-siblings (different hens, same roo) -- I think about cosanguinity, and my Silverudd's blue Isbars and Cream Legbars may be derived from small gene pools. (Especially the Isbars, and there were problems with them when they were first in the USA) -- however, my current thinking is that with the periodic introduction of the brown bird to the mix -- there would always be strong genetic diversity.

Thanks both of you for your insights!!
This is from Cackle hatchery's site and it shows all the work and generations that were needed to produce the Isabel leghorn:

This nice strong guy is from Cackles website. For the color pattern IMO he is really beautiful!​

 

[ChicKat]

BTW - as of this posting the selling price is 14.95 per chick and the availability through mid-march is zero. From the last sentence in the Cackle write-up - you can see that they paid attention to the correct APA requirements for Leghorn.

Okay from Cackle's website - this is the recipe that created the Isabella/Isabelle/Isabel/Isablline Leghorn:

The Isabella Leghorn was orginated by Buddy Henry and is now offered in baby chicks by Cackle
Hatchery in small quanities. Below is some of Buddy’s breeding history of this beautiful chicken
breed.
2008 Lavender Orpington Male X Brown Leghorn Females from Cackle Hatchery
Result: Black offspring exhibiting gold in hackles & split for lavender, various leg colors, white
earlobes and an overall leghorn appearance. Layer of light tan eggs. Generation 1

2009 Generation 1 Male X Generation 1 Females
Result: 75% Chipmunk Pattern Chicks: Culled from breeding
20% Solid Lavender Chicks: Culled from breeding
5% Isabelle Pattern Chicks: Kept and revealed same type as generation 1 but we now have
generation 2 half orpington, half leghorn

2010 Generation 2 Males X Brown Leghorn Females from Cackle Hatchery Brown Leghorn
Males from Cackle Hatchery X Generation 2 Females
Result: Generation 3 Cross 1 Split for Lavender Generation 3
Cross 2 Split for Lavender
This generation appeared like brown leghorns only darker in color patterns. Pearl legs were
still an issue but earlobes were white and eggs were finally white.

2011 Generation 3 Cross 1 Males X Generation 3 Cross 2 Females Generation 3
Cross 2 Males X Generation 3 Cross 1 Females
Result: 50% Chipmunk Pattern Culled Same
50% Isabelle Pattern Generation 4
All birds kept and not separated. Product looks done but birds are still 25% Orpington and
very heavy in appearance.

2012 Generation 4 Males X Brown Leghorn Females Don Schrider Show Line Brown
Leghorn Males Don Schrider Line X Generation 4
Result: Generation 5 Cross 1 Generation 5
Cross 2

Generation 5 is a pure brown leghorn in every since of the word. Excellent abundance of white eggs,
large white earlobes and all yellow legs. The only difference is these birds
split for Lavender

2013 Generation 5 Cross 1 Male X Generation 5 Cross Females Generation 5
Cross 2 Males X Generation 5 Cross 1 Females
Result: 50% Pure Brown Leghorns
50% Pure Isabelle Leghorns Same

Today these birds breed true as well as many other ways to get the same result.

Isabelle X Isabelle = 100% Isabelle
Isabelle X Brown Leghorn = 50% Isabelle & 50% Brown Leghorn

These birds meet ALL requirements except for color of the American Poultry Associations Standard of Perfection Manual on a Leghorn

 

[ChicKat]

To DM & CJ, if I put a link here to a thread I will start about my project birds, will you stop by and pay a visit and weigh in with your thoughts? I've been 'threatening' to start a thread, and maybe I will even do a website -- -- but maybe today's the day?

Please stop by the thread as your time permits and as the project progresses to compare notes and give thoughts/ideas.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...lavender-brown-project-and-genetic-discussion

 

[DMRippy]

Quote:

 

[The Moonshiner]

I don't think Lavender dilutes to almost white.  Splash will do that after several generations. 

The phrase is back to black but that always applies to any lavender.  In this case back to browns.  Breeding lavender to lavender is just not a good idea over any long period of time.  You will get your best Isabelles from splits to splits.  At the very least you should breed Split over lavender and every few years back to a pure brown.  There are 2 good reason for this.  1 Lavender affects feather quality.  The Lavender gene is a brittle feather gene and will cause breakage of the feathers and fretting (a mark that almost looks like a bruise in a line on the feathers).  The 2nd and BIGGEST reason you keep going back to the base color is that bird is usually more to the TYPE of the breed.  So going back to the base color (brown in this case) is to improve type and color so the lavender version will be the best it can be.   Anyone that ever buys any of my lavender birds is REQUIRED to buy some splits.  I never sell just one or the other and I ALWAYS run both splits and lavenders together to keep improving the over all bird.

I don't comment on here very much but I will say I see a LOT of birds with very poor type.  The one thing I see over and over is wings pointing down and not held up high and tight to the body.  If you don't have an SOP get one and follow the type of Leghorns.  You can download OLD SOP and trust me the type is the same.  There are usually illustrations.  These are a PROJECT and everyone's birds need some work but those wings are KILLING ME! I know color is not quite right yet but getting that right is just going to take some time.

Candace this was in no way directed at you... just wanted to add to what you already said. 

I've read your comments on here and couldnt agree more.
That first post was one of those that you get a little ways into and discover youre on the same page as the poster. It was boom boom boom, same thinking i've had since getting isabelles.
Good info, good details, good way of just laying it out where its easy to follow. You can tell youre speaking from been there done that doing this.

Couple questions about this.....
Breeding lavender to lavender is just not a good idea over any long period of time. You will get your best Isabelles from splits to splits. At the very least you should breed Split over lavender and every few years back to a pure brown.

Breeding brother and sister will only exacerbate any issues the birds have. The only time you breed siblings is when you are trying to SET a trait in a breed and you don't do that for long.

You mention breeding splits make the best isabelles but at least breed isabelle over splits.
You also mention not best plan to breed siblings or at least not for long.
I bred isabelle to the best browns i could get. Then same isabelle rooster over the split pullets. Take best isabelle from that to new best browns i can find and repeat.
If you breed a isabelle to brown then breed the offspring splits together for the isabelles. Then where do you go?
One reason i didnt go that route is because some of the splits offspring wont have the lavender gene. The way i went is so all browns were known splits.
Also breeding the splits would be sibling or half sibling breeding if you only use one rooster. I liked parent to offspring as a better option. Bringing in better type browns also brought in new blood.

Whats your thoughts?

 

[DMRippy]

You mention breeding splits make the best isabelles but at least breed isabelle over splits.
You also mention not best plan to breed siblings or at least not for long.
I bred isabelle to the best browns i could get. Then same isabelle rooster over the split pullets. Take best isabelle from that to new best browns i can find and repeat.
If you breed a isabelle to brown then breed the offspring splits together for the isabelles. Then where do you go?
One reason i didnt go that route is because some of the splits offspring wont have the lavender gene. The way i went is so all browns were known splits.
Also breeding the splits would be sibling or half sibling breeding if you only use one rooster. I liked parent to offspring as a better option. Bringing in better type browns also brought in new blood.

Whats your thoughts?

When breeding splits to splits most people would only use the Lavenders from that cross. If you do keep the non lavender breed them back to a splits (confirmed split... you could also test mate the non lavender to a lavender to see if it carries the gene or not.10-15 chicks should tell you if they are a split or not) or another lavender. It is ALWAYS best to have 2 lines at one time so you can cross between the two lines to reduce issues but keep good genetics. You should always breed back to a good brown to keep improving them... they will not get better if you don't. Parent to offspring is better.

You might want to look up the different types of breeding programs. Line breeding, spiral.... there are lots of plans but chickens are not like humans so you can breed them pretty closely.

 

[Kiki]

And this is the thread to submit pictures for next year's calendar!!!!

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/1111133/2017-byc-calendar-your-pictures-needed

I've been reading from the beginning..
Chickat cracks me up with the calendar suggestions...
Did any of the pics make it into the calendar?

 

[ChicKat]

I've been reading from the beginning..
Chickat cracks me up with the calendar suggestions...
Did any of the pics make it into the calendar?

LOL - whenever I see a cool photo on BYC, I tell the owner to submit to the calender...yep -- you got me. There are so many great photographs that people put up on these threads.