Landrace/adaptive breeding discussion

[Florida Bullfrog]

He got a pass--or a lot of passes--because he was so good with the girls. He was perfect with predators. The dog attack I witnessed he got between the dog and the hens, then played wounded bird and led the dog away before he flew back.

So I found a place that needed what he had. Full disclosure, of course.

It would be enlightening to have antidotal but accurate records of what particular aggressive roosters would and would not attack. It would be logical to consider that a rooster that attacks dogs and hawks with the same extreme prejudice that he attacks humans would be attacking things he perceives to be predatory threats, while one that attacks humans and rival roosters only cannot differentiate between the two.

I would like to see a kamikaze rooster that fights all threats to the death without a notion of self-preservation. I’m sure some exist. May not be a practical farm bird, but I’d like to study it all the same. That would be the one to throw out in the deep woods to see what happens. I would predict it would run up against a predator that will take the flogging and kill him anyhow like a bobcat or horned owl. But maybe not.

 

[LaurenRitz]

They would need to breed quickly enough to out-compete predator pressure, which brings us back to the broodiness issue.

The JG I mentioned before died protecting his girls from a dog attack but had no human aggression, so obviously he could differentiate on some level. He was 9 months old when he died.

The hens accepted his son by 18 weeks and his eggs were fertile immediately. So early fertility, early broodiness and enough intelligence to differentiate threat severity?

 

[No Coop No Problem]

I do find straight game breeds to be human useful. I don’t require high efficiency in egg production per hen. 20 free range American game hens will give my family all the eggs we can eat in a year.

American Game are quite possibly a perfect survival bird already. I started out with 13 American Game and I've not lost a single one to disease or predation to this day. They're a genuinely impressive breed as is, and are fully willing to attack a fox to protect their young

The RIR was in fact created by crossing oriental gamefowl to leghorns about a century ago. Hatcheries ruined their free-range potential IMO over the subsequent decades. Reinfusing some fresh oriental genes into them ought to work. That’s actually one of the strategies I advocate in my upcoming book. Using an oriental gamefowl over a flock of more “normal” layers to follow a rough genetic blueprint of the RIR. Assuming a person has the patience to raise out an oriental game cock to full maturity.

From what I understand the RIR is a cross between an Oriental Game of some kind and a Brown Leghorn. My first year with chickens I did lose half of my reds to predators, but the games and reds notably produced both predator immune and productive offspring. RIR mixed with any game, feral or wild breed/LR truly make fantastic chickens

If the original combo of RIR is half game, half leghorn, then I think perhaps all they need is the ratio of game blood to be raised. Asil and RIR would be an infusion of toughness for a more rugged lifestyle.
A fox can catch pure Reds, but can't catch American Game. However the fox also can't catch RIR/Game mixes

For the last two years I've merely been recreating the wheel (ie junglefowl) like a fool, only to rediscover why humans domesticated junglefowl in the first place

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

American Game are quite possibly a perfect survival bird already. I started out with 13 American Game and I've not lost a single one to disease or predation to this day. They're a genuinely impressive breed as is, and are fully willing to attack a fox to protect their young

From what I understand the RIR is a cross between an Oriental Game of some kind and a Brown Leghorn. My first year with chickens I did lose half of my reds to predators, but the games and reds notably produced both predator immune and productive offspring. RIR mixed with any game, feral or wild breed/LR truly make fantastic chickens

If the original combo of RIR is half game, half leghorn, then I think perhaps all they need is the ratio of game blood to be raised. Asil and RIR would be an infusion of toughness for a more rugged lifestyle.
A fox can catch pure Reds, but can't catch American Game. However the fox also can't catch RIR/Game mixes

For the last two years I've merely been recreating the wheel (ie junglefowl) like a fool, only to rediscover why humans domesticated junglefowl in the first place

I think the RIR likely changed from its original form as a free-range, duel purpose, tough-as-nails, American farm chicken to a mass-produced product for feed stores.

Yes, for today’s purposes, you may want to up the percentage of oriental blood. I don’t think its because the original RIR formula was deficient, but because removing natural selection softened the RIR from its original form.

The demon RIR rooster that many of us experienced as children on Grandpa’s farm in the 1970s or 1980s was probably an all together differently tempered and more athletic bird that what the local feed store sells in 2024. In 1950, a mature RIR rooster’s heritage as having a large amount of oriental gamefowl blood was probably apparent.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

For those of you with free-range hens with chicks, at what ages or stages of development are you noticing that hens are leaving chicks to fend for themselves, whether it be for a little while or a long time/permanently, if at all prior to adulthood? Do you notice differences between genetic backgrounds?

 

[LaurenRitz]

Interesting question. I have 2 broodies, both repeats. The first is a BA. She tends to let her chicks go somewhere around week 8. By that time she is laying again and visibly frustrated with the chicks. With her single hatchling she held out longer. He was 16 weeks when he died, and she was still protecting him from the other hens.

The JG is currently nesting. As I remember, she generally starts distancing herself at about 4 weeks?

I think it's probably hen specific.

 

[Perris]

For those of you with free-range hens with chicks, at what ages or stages of development are you noticing that hens are leaving chicks to fend for themselves, whether it be for a little while or a long time/permanently, if at all prior to adulthood? Do you notice differences between genetic backgrounds?

It has got longer here over time. Commonly it's 3 months or more. And commonly one of the subordinate roos steps up to watch over the newly independent clutch. Also here the broodies just drift away from their clutches when they think the time is right, they don't chase the youngsters away. That starts with the hen quietly slipping out of the coop where her family have all gone to roost and joining the other adults while her chicks stay where they were, before the coop doors are shut. And she will spend the days with them, and not the nights, for quite a while, before they really go their separate ways. And even then they may come back together for a family reunion. Like this

The hen is on the left. The rest in shot were her clutch, 2 roos, 3 pullets.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

It has got longer here over time. Commonly it's 3 months or more. And commonly one of the subordinate roos steps up to watch over the newly independent clutch. Also here the broodies just drift away from their clutches when they think the time is right, they don't chase the youngsters away. That starts with the hen quietly slipping out of the coop where her family have all gone to roost and joining the other adults while her chicks stay where they were, before the coop doors are shut. And she will spend the days with them, and not the nights, for quite a while, before they really go their separate ways. And even then they may come back together for a family reunion. Like this
View attachment 3848126
The hen is on the left. The rest in shot were her clutch, 2 roos, 3 pullets.

I like that. I can't see a survival advantage to abandoning chicks while they're very young. I like hens that stay with chicks for a long time. My pet peeve are hens that tree roost at 2-3 weeks and leave the biddies on the ground.

I'm dealing with two hens now that have left their 15 biddies (3-4 weeks old) on the ground and mostly let them fend for themselves during the day as of two days ago, after having been pretty darn good mothers for the first 3 weeks. I'm not yet sure if this is a defective parental instinct on their part, or if they know something I don't. The two hens are sisters of my barnyard mix line that are generally black with brown penciling, made up of my Crackers, aseel, and Liege.

Pics of one of the mother with the biddies a couple of days ago and the biddies tonight where both mothers have roosted up in the trees with their favorite stag. Both hens are laying now. The biddies are returning to their coops at night. The mothers will walk with them some during the day but spend much of the day about 100 yards away from the biddies. The days are 90F and the nights are in the low to mid 60sF. The group of 5 is about a week older than the group of 10. The mother of the 10 started this semi-abandonment 2 days ago and the mother of 5 followed suit today and tonight. Hawk activity is almost nothing as far as I know. Last hawk I saw was a Cooper's hawk about 2 weeks ago.

 

[LaurenRitz]

I know a lot of people don't agree with me, but I think human breeding has inadvertently selected for a lot of counter-productive behaviors. So many generations have been hatched in incubators and brooded by humans that you get things like broken brooding instincts, Moms that don't know how to care for themselves, birds that kill chicks, and so on. Things that would result in either the hen or the chicks dying are not only allowed, but accepted by human keepers. In a wild flock, not only would correct behavior be modeled, but those birds showing incorrect behavior probably wouldn't pass on their genes.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I know a lot of people don't agree with me, but I think human breeding has inadvertently selected for a lot of counter-productive behaviors. So many generations have been hatched in incubators and brooded by humans that you get things like broken brooding instincts, Moms that don't know how to care for themselves, birds that kill chicks, and so on. Things that would result in either the hen or the chicks dying are not only allowed, but accepted by human keepers. In a wild flock, not only would correct behavior be modeled, but those birds showing incorrect behavior probably wouldn't pass on their genes.

I’m going to see if these chicks get eliminated or thrive. My instinct is to pull them off of free range and coop them
with a heat plate. But I’m going to let nature take its course. The older 5 are feathered out and roosting off the ground. I’m pretty sure they’ll be fine. The younger 10 still have some fuzz. I once had a fuzzy chick survive nights in the 20sF on the ground by herself after a hawk killed her mother. I called that chick Survivorlady and she lived and brooded many chicks until Marek’s got her last year. We’ll see what these do.