Landrace/adaptive breeding discussion

[Wild Iris]

@LaurenRitz , @No Coop No Problem , @Ridgerunner --
Thank you so much for your insights and advice.
This morning I let everyone out and watched closely to see what happened:

The "winner" yesterday pecked once or twice at the third brawling chick and the third scooted away; "winner" let it go. This happened a couple times, & they seemed to figure out how to keep away from one another. No problems in the past 4 hours, though they have all been close together staying out of the rain.

Rufus got too close to "winner", and "winner" went after him. Rufus ran away and "winner" chased. Happened twice, then Rufus turned and everything immediately escalated as before. I separated them again and put Rufus in a crate in the fenced area with regular chickens. He is very forlorn and vocal.

From the outside, it looks like "winner" is the instigator right now-- though it may be in response to a history with Rufus, since he doesn't escalate with the others. Perhaps Rufus's submission lacks conviction and "winner" sees this. At this point, everything stays calm when Rufus is out of the picture.

 

[Wild Iris]

This is only a theory, I don't know that I am correct. Some Games are bred for cockfighting... You do not know the history of that hen.

Yes, I've been concerned about this. The fact that she was found inside a house that was up for rent makes me think her owners were not conscientious. Not-conscientious + Game is starting to point in the direction of cockfighting.

 

[Wild Iris]

I suspect it might be the father's bloodline that's introduced the violent traits. If you read around online you'll find many stories of production roosters attacking people but zero stories of game roosters attacking people

This is my husband's theory. He says that brains and aggression might be necessary for a Game, but production chickens can be stupid. Combine stupid with agression and there's a big problem.

Keep the best behaved cockerel, eliminate the rest

In your opinion, would that be the "winner" or the third brawler?
If they all continue peacefully without Rufus, I can eliminate him and see what personalities show up in the others.

 

[Wild Iris]

My guess is you have one that has been bullying everybody, and self defense kicked in. Based on what you have said, I would let the wounded boy out after they cool off, and see how he and the "winner" interact. Watch closely for any attempt to mount their brothers or otherwise play dominance games. My bet is on Rufus as the aggressor.

In my experience 5-8 weeks has been when negative behaviors first start to show.

I'm glad to know about the behavior timeline.

I'm very tempted to get rid of Rufus right now, since he has a history of impudence. I hesitate, though, because I'm really feeling my inexperience. I remember @Florida Bullfrog said he regretted culling too quickly in his flock, that there was more going on that the obvious external traits.

 

[Ridgerunner]

In your opinion, would that be the "winner" or the third brawler?
If they all continue peacefully without Rufus, I can eliminate him and see what personalities show up in the others.

You are looking at them, we are not. I think trial and error is a good way for you to proceed.

 

[LaurenRitz]

I saw a situation once--not on this level, nowhere near it, but interesting on a behavioral level.

I had a group of chicks that was mostly cockerels. One of the chicks was obviously dominant, or so I thought. He was bossy, making everyone back diwn, dominating the pullets and basically making a nuisance if himself.

One of the other cockerels was, from my perspective, somewhere in the pack. Not picked on, but not physically dominant either.

Then while watching them I noticed something interesting. He always ate before the "dominant" cockerel, and no one contested it. Other signs showed that I was misunderstanding.

The physically dominant cockerel wasn't the alpha. Then I saw the "dominant" try to pick a fight with the other, flaring his hackles and crowding.

The other cockerel just looked at him, and he backed down immediately.

 

[No Coop No Problem]

This is my husband's theory. He says that brains and aggression might be necessary for a Game, but production chickens can be stupid. Combine stupid with agression and there's a big problem.

Just as human prisons have a notorious reputation for violence and rape, chicken hatcheries aren't too different. When 100 animals are locked into a single room, the most aggressive, violent rapist will spread his genes the most. Under many different hatcheries and breeding models violent genes will spread like fire

Gamefowl on the other hand are typically strongly selected for behavior, because those that keep them don't want these strong breeds acting inappropriately violent

I've had many different game roosters and all behaved like perfect gentlemen. I've also had many different production roosters and they have an extremely wide range of behavior- from violent, rapey monsters (from hatcheries) to perfectly behaved gentlemen (from other backyard flocks)

In your opinion, would that be the "winner" or the third brawler?
If they all continue peacefully without Rufus, I can eliminate him and see what personalities show up in the others.

Rufus sounds like the problem child right now. Both winning and gracefully losing are fine, but resentful, aggressive losing creates further conflict. I would take my time and seriously contemplate the situation before making any permanent decisions

 

[NatJ]

This morning I let everyone out and watched closely to see what happened:
....
At this point, everything stays calm when Rufus is out of the picture.

I'm curious what would happen if you penned up the "winner" from the other day, and let Rufus out instead. Would things also be peaceful that way? Or would Rufus cause issues with the "loser" or any other chicks?

 

[Wild Iris]

Rufus sounds like the problem child right now. Both winning and gracefully losing are fine, but resentful, aggressive losing creates further conflict. I would take my time and seriously contemplate the situation before making any permanent decisions

Yes, I feel this way, too. It's certainly a learning experience.

Your take on production chickens makes sense. I already had to get rid of a "Starlight Easter Egger" rooster for being mean to the hens.

I'm curious what would happen if you penned up the "winner" from the other day, and let Rufus out instead. Would things also be peaceful that way? Or would Rufus cause issues with the "loser" or any other chicks?

It's a good question; I would like to know.

I let Rufus out just now--rain was pooling in the bottom of his crate even though I have a cover on it--and I expected him to make a beeline for his flock through the open gate. Instead, he circled around the chicken yard as though investigating. After I adjusted the cover, I put a dish of food into his crate and he willingly went back in.

Now I'm wondering what he would do if I just let him loose in the chicken yard with the grown hens.

 

[Wild Iris]

Quick update, just for those interested in reprobate chick dynamics:

The chicks were all getting along well, so I let Rufus out again at 5pm. He immediately caused a ruckus by bounding roughly into the middle of their circle, and was violently chastised. Two minutes later it happened again and this time he escalated into a proper fight. I moved to grab him, but mama hen jumped with flapping wings into the middle of their fight and broke it up.

After this, Rufus more or less kept his distance from the family, following about 1-2 yards behind. If he moved slowly & respectfully, he could sometimes get closer, but when he pranced in and acted like he belonged, he had his feathers pulled out by one of the boys or his head pecked by mom. When the rain started again, he was not allowed under her wings or near them in the shelter; he went back to his crate in the chicken yard for shelter, and seemed to settle down there for the night.

But as the crew came up for the evening routine, he saw them and became frantic. I let him out and, naturally, he bolted into the center of everything and lost a couple feathers in consequence. After that he lurked around the edges, not knowing what to do. Everyone started to nestle down under mama for the night and I closed the door on them to let them settle without him; when they were calm, I opened the door again. He went in quietly and perched above them, then managed to nestle down without upsetting anyone.

I kept the door open in case a fight broke out, but when I left everyone was snoozing peacefully.