Langshan and Cochin

[noconachickenmama]

So, my start in chickens began with a lot of wrong info...but I digress. I have a Langshan rooster, which as a day old chick I was told was a silkie. Then, as he grew, that was obviously wrong. Then I thought due to size, coloration, feathered legs, and the fact that another roo was pulling out his tail, that he was a Cochin. Even the hatchery said that's what he was. So I bought 8 cochin hens because I wanted to breed pure cochins. Now I find out he is a Langshan. I know they are related...does anyone know what I'll get if I breed a blue Langshan roo to various colors of Cochin hens? I have blue, black, white, silver laced gold laced and buff. Thinking of selling them and buying Langshans but they are hard to find and dont seem to come in many colors

 

[Pyxis]

Do you have pictures of your rooster?

Well, what you'll get is all mixed breed chicks in various colors. If your rooster is blue, then bred to the blue and black hens you'll get more blue and black chicks, and splash as well from the blue hen.

White, if it's dominant white, you're looking at getting white chicks probably with spots of black.

Silver and gold laced you should, I think, get more blue and black chicks that might in some way appear partially laced. This one I'm not entirely sure of.

Buff is a complicated color. But if the genetics calculator I use is to be believed, you'll also get blue and black chicks from this cross. Buff can 'hide' some stuff like dominant white though, so who knows. Also probably the chicks would have some color leakage.

I may be wrong on the laced and buff breedings. Hopefully someone will come along to confirm or deny.

 

[noconachickenmama]

Do you have pictures of your rooster?

Well, what you'll get is all mixed breed chicks in various colors. If your rooster is blue, then bred to the blue and black hens you'll get more blue and black chicks, and splash as well from the blue hen.

White, if it's dominant white, you're looking at getting white chicks probably with spots of black.

Silver and gold laced you should, I think, get more blue and black chicks that might in some way appear partially laced. This one I'm not entirely sure of.

Buff is a complicated color. But if the genetics calculator I use is to be believed, you'll also get blue and black chicks from this cross. Buff can 'hide' some stuff like dominant white though, so who knows. Also probably the chicks would have some color leakage.

I may be wrong on the laced and buff breedings. Hopefully someone will come along to confirm or deny.

Yes, here is my roo, "Boots". Hes a really great rooster. To me and his hens. I dont want to replace him so I guess I have to get different hens. Sigh. I have one Langshan hen, and I have two 3 week old chicks from them that I'm sure are pullets. I guess I can start there but I wont have much color in my flock.

 

[noconachickenmama]

Yes, here is my roo, "Boots". Hes a really great rooster. To me and his hens. I dont want to replace him so I guess I have to get different hens. Sigh. I have one Langshan hen, and I have two 3 week old chicks from them that I'm sure are pullets. I guess I can start there but I wont have much color in my flock.

So it sounds like I could get something pretty and ok if I breed him to the white, the black and the blue, but should stay away from the laced and the buff. I may sell them all. Have someone coming to look Saturday but she wants just four. Maybe i sell her the laced

 

[Sydney Acres]

Yes, he is a blue Croad Langshan. The Standard for the breed lists blue, black, and white. Blue bred to blue genetics will give you blue, black, and splash. If your goal is to breed to the Standard, then that's what you're stuck with. On the other hand, if your goal is to breed some really fantastic chickens with brighter colors but have no plans to show, then go ahead and breed some mixes and work on some color projects. Take the best of the SOP for either of the breeds or average them out between the two breeds and breed for a healthy and robust frame, but it doesn't have to be the frame of a Langshan or a Cochin -- you can select for something in the middle if you want, as long as the frame works well for them. The goal of breeding to the SOP is two fold -- one is to preserve the breeds, which is an important goal, but not everyone has to focus on that. The second goal is to use the SOP description to select breeding birds that produce offspring with healthy frames that can walk without pain, forage competently, have great vigor, and have a structure that either produces great meat or lays great eggs, or a little of both. That sounds like a "DUH" thing to say, but realistically a high percentage of birds that are bred do not meet this goal. If you're not showing, and not preserving one of the breeds, then just actively select for great frames and vigor in your birds and don't worry about what the color Standards are for each breed. There's nothing wrong with mixed breed birds, as long as you are honest with buyers, and you breed for quality. Lots of people breed specifically because of a favorite hen or rooster.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Here is a link to calculating color, but remember that frame and vigor are the most important foundations. Build a sturdy barn first, then paint it any color you want. Don't breed pretty birds with incompetent frames that aren't productive for their goals.
https://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

 

[noconachickenmama]

Yes, he is a blue Croad Langshan. The Standard for the breed lists blue, black, and white. Blue bred to blue genetics will give you blue, black, and splash. If your goal is to breed to the Standard, then that's what you're stuck with. On the other hand, if your goal is to breed some really fantastic chickens with brighter colors but have no plans to show, then go ahead and breed some mixes and work on some color projects. Take the best of the SOP for either of the breeds or average them out between the two breeds and breed for a healthy and robust frame, but it doesn't have to be the frame of a Langshan or a Cochin -- you can select for something in the middle if you want, as long as the frame works well for them. The goal of breeding to the SOP is two fold -- one is to preserve the breeds, which is an important goal, but not everyone has to focus on that. The second goal is to select breeding birds that produce offspring with healthy frames that can walk without pain, forage competently, have great vigor, and have a structure that either produces great meat or lays great eggs, or a little of both. That sounds like a "DUH" thing to say, but realistically a high percentage of birds that are bred do not meet this goal. If you're not showing, and not preserving one of the breeds, then just actively select for great frames and vigor in your birds and don't worry about what the color Standards are for each breed. There's nothing wrong with mixed breed birds, as long as you are honest with buyers, and you breed for quality. Lots of people breed specifically because of a favorite hen or rooster.

That's cool. You sound very knowledgeable, and I appreciate both the knowledge and the kindness. So, do you know if the tail issue is dominant? I dont even know what that is called...the cochin isnt "rumpkess" but they certainly dont have much tail. I like that better on the Langshan. Will a cross chick perhaps get more tail from him? What is your opinion of me breeding him back to chicks he fathered? If both parents are Langshans and the chicks grow into good examples of the breed?

 

[Sydney Acres]

I'm not that familiar with the SOP for Cochins. However, they are not rumpless -- they just have a tail that blends in with their huge fluff to give them a very round profile, whereas the Langshan is tall, elegant in movement, and has a more obvious tail. Basically, they are polar opposite in frames. If you cross the breeds you will get a huge range of tail appearances.

Ideally, every Standard bred bird of a certain breed will have a specific frame, a specific body shape/size/proportion/posture/movement, a specific look that is distinct for that breed, regardless of color. When you mix two different breeds, you don't just get the "average" of each feature between the two breeds. You get some features from one parent and some the other parent, randomly combined, to create a unique offspring every time, as opposed to getting consistency of offspring like you should when breeding Standard bred lines.

I know, the words make sense but it's hard to visualize. The way my mentor explained it to me was genius. Most people think that mixing two different breeds is like mixing liquid paint. Add one quart of yellow paint together with one quart of blue paint, mix well, and you get 2 quarts of green paint. Pretty simple. But that's not how genetics work. Instead, think of genetics as thick paste paint, not liquid paint. Smear a layer of yellow paste paint on a smooth surface. Add a layer of blue paint beside it, so that you've got the layers smeared side by side. Then take a brush and drag it back and forth across the two colors 5-10 times. You will still have some areas of blue, some areas of yellow, some areas will have mixed well enough to have created green, and most areas will be a swirl of yellow and blue and green all side by side. Quite a mosaic, different in every area. Then place a grid over your paste that you've just mixed. What is in each square of the grid represents the characteristics of each chick. There will likely be no chicks that will be completely "green" -- a perfect mix of both parents. Almost all chicks will be a unique and unpredictable mix of yellow, green, and blues in regard to every characteristic that you're evaluating. Whatever you get, just select the ones with the features that you like, and don't breed the ones with the features that you don't like, definitely limiting your candidates to the ones with good frames/posture/movement/vigor, etc. Never breed a bird that will degrade the basic skeletal structure or health of your flock.

Line breeding is fine, which is father to daughter, or mother to son, and it will stabilize features that both of them share, both good and bad features. Just monitor to be sure that you are avoiding locking in any serious faults that they may share. The difference between line breeding that works great, and inbreeding that creates problems, is careful monitoring of the chicks and very careful selection of breeding animals. That requires good breeding records and progress notes as the chicks grow, ideally with pictures

 

[Justso]

Yes, he is a blue Croad Langshan. The Standard for the breed lists blue, black, and white. Blue bred to blue genetics will give you blue, black, and splash. If your goal is to breed to the Standard, then that's what you're stuck with. On the other hand, if your goal is to breed some really fantastic chickens with brighter colors but have no plans to show, then go ahead and breed some mixes and work on some color projects. Take the best of the SOP for either of the breeds or average them out between the two breeds and breed for a healthy and robust frame, but it doesn't have to be the frame of a Langshan or a Cochin -- you can select for something in the middle if you want, as long as the frame works well for them. The goal of breeding to the SOP is two fold -- one is to preserve the breeds, which is an important goal, but not everyone has to focus on that. The second goal is to use the SOP description to select breeding birds that produce offspring with healthy frames that can walk without pain, forage competently, have great vigor, and have a structure that either produces great meat or lays great eggs, or a little of both. That sounds like a "DUH" thing to say, but realistically a high percentage of birds that are bred do not meet this goal. If you're not showing, and not preserving one of the breeds, then just actively select for great frames and vigor in your birds and don't worry about what the color Standards are for each breed. There's nothing wrong with mixed breed birds, as long as you are honest with buyers, and you breed for quality. Lots of people breed specifically because of a favorite hen or rooster.

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