Langshan Thread!!!

[cluckcluckluke]

Wonderful.

O.k, I am a straight up beginner, so no laughing.

1) Do I need 2 lines to start off with ( eg: 1st line has 1 Roo and 7 hens, 2nd line 1 roo 7 hens ) or can you breed with just one?
2) If I have 2 lines do all the chickens have to be unrelated? Whats the go?
3) I am not breeding show qual birds, I just want large birds with excellent laying ability. How do I go about this? eg tagging? records? culling? traits etc?
4) do you have a diagram of how to breed? Like where to back cross, same generation crossing etc???
5) I don't want to end up inbreeding, how far do you go though? Ive heard father and daughter is fine but not siblings ( I think? )

I'm sorry if there questions are, well...difficult to understand I am just having a bit of trouble figuring out what I'm going to and don't really know how to go about asking properly.lol.

 

[BGMatt]

Wonderful.

O.k, I am a straight up beginner, so no laughing.

1) Do I need 2 lines to start off with ( eg: 1st line has 1 Roo and 7 hens,  2nd line 1 roo 7 hens ) or can you breed with just one?
2) If I have 2 lines do all the chickens have to be unrelated? Whats the go?
3) I am not breeding show qual birds, I just want large birds with excellent laying ability. How do I go about this? eg tagging? records? culling? traits etc?
4)  do you have a diagram of how to breed? Like where to back cross, same generation crossing etc???
5) I don't want to end up inbreeding, how far do you go though? Ive heard father and daughter is fine but not siblings ( I think? )

I'm sorry if there questions are, well...difficult to understand I am just having a bit of trouble figuring out what I'm going to and don't really know how to go about asking properly.lol.

1) it would be easiest as a beginner to work with one line. Sometimes when blending lines unexpected things can pop up.

2) Would advise working with one line. If you go with two I would say find one that branched off the other one if that makes sense? Like if you get birds from "Jim" then your second line should be from someone that got birds from "Jim" and has been working on them for a while.

3) Show quality or not, the shape described in the Standard allows for better production if that's also selected for. There are different ways to measure production, but set realistic goals and cull toward those goals. I recommend every beginner read "The Call of the Hen" by Walter Hogan, there is a free ebook version out there, it describes in detail how to evaluate birds for egg production., and I have found that method accurate, it is also easier to manage than trap nesting to track laying.

4) Depends on how big an operation you want. Easiest ones are a simple rolling system (requires two pens, you always breed cocks to pullets in one pen, and cockerels to hens in the other pen) or a rotational clan system which takes more space and is more intensive (usually a minimum of 4 breeding pens, often smaller matings, often with a partner). I have used both with good success and can expand on either if you'd like.

5) Either of the above systems can go a long ways without having negative impacts from inbreeding. Sibling matings definitely get you in trouble fast.

You're asking good questions. Hopefully my advice makes sense and I'm sure others might chime in too. In 20 years I've raised over 80 breeds and varieties of domestic poultry, from as many as 300+ breeding birds at once and countless thousands of chicks from those pairings, in all that I have three sentences of some very simple advice: Don't overcomplicate. Keep your goals firmly in mind. You'll only have what you tolerate.

That last sentence means if you tolerate poor layers, you'll have more. If you "save" sick birds, you'll get more sick birds. If you keep healthy active birds that have the traits you want, you'll have more of those. It applies to every aspect of keeping poultry.

The other biggest advice I can offer about breeding is select complimentary matings. For example lets talk tails. Birds with pinched tails don't conform to standard, but more importantly are also poor layers. If your male bird has a pinched tail, and your females have pinched tails, all the offspring will have pinched tails. If you breed a bird with a narrow tail for example (maybe it has something else you really like, maybe a really deep body) then you need to balance that with a bird that has a wide tail. Line breeding no matter the method is a great way to preserve qualities, often referred to as "setting the line". But it's a two edged sword. It sets the good traits, but also sets the bad traits.

 

[cluckcluckluke]

Quote:
Firstly

thank you SO MUCH. I really appreciate your time to explain this all and it is exactly what I have been looking for. Your advice is crystal clear and much appreciated.


1) Ok, so with one line I could be looking at 1 rooster with 7 off his daughters and that would be fine? I then hatch the next gen ( my roos grandaughters ) and then from 14 hens ( daughter and grands ) I cull what I want back down to 7 and just keep going??? Is that right? How many generations down do I bring in a new rooster?
Also when you mean one line you mean 1 rooster, right?

2) Understood.

3) I have found the book and will go through it now.

4) I'm not to fond of having small breeding pens like I see in some places. My current setup is a large run with a roost shed and a separate nest shed. If you say I only need one line then why do I need separate breeding pens? If I have hens ( undesirable ) that I don't want my rooster with then they will be culled.

5) Ok, so no sibling crossing then.lol. So only back crossing and if I have 2 lines, mixing lines.

I read back over my questions and they just sounds all garbled haha, but I am glad you understood what I was asking.

All that in 20 years, wow. Are you just breeding Langshans now?
Great advice, thanks. I really like the 3rd one they will for sure be staying in my mind.

That last paragraph I understand completely, my dad was teaching me all about that. He knows everything genetic so I have that covered.lol. He was very persistent in telling me about it being as you say "a two edged sword". You concentrate the desired qualities but also the bad.
What are pinched tails?

One more question for now. How can I cull to the standard when I have no idea what I'm looking for??? I have read the standard for the White Leghorn but when I go out and look at my rooster I just don't get it ( I'm not stupid, am I.lol? ).
Like for example: It says Carriage: Very sprightly and alert but without any suggestion of stiltiness or in-kneed appearance. Well balanced.
Not being rude, but how can a carriage of a bird be alert!!! Also, 'well balanced'. Well balanced to what? to the size of the bird? to the stature of the bird.
Does it make sense to you? I bet it does.lol.

Thanks again

.

 

[BGMatt]

Firstly thank you SO MUCH. I really appreciate your time to explain this all and it is exactly what I have been looking for. Your advice is crystal clear and much appreciated.


1) Ok, so with one line I could be looking at 1 rooster with 7 off his daughters and that would be fine? I then hatch the next gen ( my roos grandaughters ) and then from 14 hens ( daughter and grands ) I cull what I want back down to 7 and just keep going??? Is that right? How many generations down do I bring in a new rooster?
Also when you mean one line you mean 1 rooster, right?

2) Understood.

3) I have found the book and will go through it now.

4) I'm not to fond of having small breeding pens like I see in some places. My current setup is a large run with a roost shed and a separate nest shed. If you say I only need one line then why do I need separate breeding pens? If I have hens ( undesirable ) that I don't want my rooster with then they will be culled.

5) Ok, so no sibling crossing then.lol. So only back crossing and if I have 2 lines, mixing lines.

I read back over my questions and they just sounds all garbled haha, but I am glad you understood what I was asking.
All that in 20 years, wow. Are you just breeding Langshans now?
Great advice, thanks. I really like the 3rd one they will for sure be staying in my mind.

That last paragraph I understand completely, my dad was teaching me all about that. He knows everything genetic so I have that covered.lol. He was very persistent in telling me about it being as you say "a two edged sword". You concentrate the desired qualities but also the bad.
What are pinched tails?

One more question for now. How can I cull to the standard when I have no idea what I'm looking for??? I have read the standard for the White Leghorn but when I go out and look at my rooster I just don't get it ( I'm not stupid, am I.lol? ).
Like for example: It says Carriage: [COLOR=000000]Very sprightly and alert but without any suggestion of stiltiness or in-kneed appearance. Well balanced.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=000000]Not being rude, but how can a carriage of a bird be alert!!![/COLOR] Also, 'well balanced'. Well balanced to what? to the size of the bird? to the stature of the bird.
Does it make sense to you? I bet it does.lol.

Thanks again .

It does make sense. Everything in the standard is relative to the bird. Review the first 40 pages again and it will clarify it more than I ever could here. Remember these standards were wrote a while ago and the terminology might be slightly off. In your example and leghorn carriage (kind of like a langshan actually) "alert" is trying to convey, almost on toe as if they were on alert against a predator or something. (According to my mentor who was an APA judge) But without being stilt like legs or the knees being too close together (both of which are common faults with Langshans as well)

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding when you say one line vs two. I meant for your sourcing stock. A Rolling breeding system (the smaller of the two I recommend) the birds need to be separated during hatching season, you can breed from as many or as few birds in each as you want, the important thing being in one pen you choose the male(s) from your cock birds (over a year) and breed them to females selected from your pullets (under a year/the previous years hatch). The other pen you select the male from your cockerels (under a year/last years hatch) and select the females from your hens (over a year). That ensures you will never breed siblings, you might end up with a grand sire or great grand sire over his grand daughters, or a cockerel over his dam's dam. If that makes sense. Let me break it down by year.

Year one: breed your starters together.

Year two: take your original male and breed him over his daughters (I'll call this pen a) and your best young male and breed him to your hens (this is now called pen b)

Year three:
Pen A: Use either your original male again, or the now cock bird that was in pen B in year two, and breed them to your best pullets from year two (either pen)

Pen B: Take your best cockerel (regardless of pen) and breed him to your best Hens (including the females from pen A in year two)

Year four:
Pen A- Select your best old male (original, year two male from pen b, year three male from pen b) and breed to best pullets always regardless of pen

Pen B- best cockerel always regardless of what pen he was born in, bred to best old hens, regardless of what pen they were born from

And you just keep going from there.

Edit: missed some questions. Yes all that in only that number of years, I used to make the common mistake newcomers make and get a few birds of a lot of breeds and spread myself too thin rather than specialize, I think at one point I had more than 15 breeds/varieties at once. You can't make any progress that way, just can't hatch enough of one particular breed to make serious improvements. It did really help me learn a lot about varies breeds though. Now I'm just raising Langshans, Buff Leghorns and Spangled Old English Game bantams.

A pinched tail is when the tail feathers are held together tightly vertically or horizontally or worse both. It is a visual clue that the rear of the bird is pinched and narrow under the feathers which makes for a poor producing bird.

Well balanced on a bird simply means just that. The legs should be centered on the body, there should be symmetry. With either the Langshan or a Leghorn you wouldn't want a bird with a huge tail but a flat, undeveloped chest because it would look out of balance. Make sense?

 

[cluckcluckluke]

It does make sense. Everything in the standard is relative to the bird. Review the first 40 pages again and it will clarify it more than I ever could here. Remember these standards were wrote a while ago and the terminology might be slightly off. In your example and leghorn carriage (kind of like a langshan actually) "alert" is trying to convey, almost on toe as if they were on alert against a predator or something. (According to my mentor who was an APA judge) But without being stilt like legs or the knees being too close together (both of which are common faults with Langshans as well)

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding when you say one line vs two. I meant for your sourcing stock. A Rolling breeding system (the smaller of the two I recommend) the birds need to be separated during hatching season, you can breed from as many or as few birds in each as you want, the important thing being in one pen you choose the male(s) from your cock birds (over a year) and breed them to females selected from your pullets (under a year/the previous years hatch). The other pen you select the male from your cockerels (under a year/last years hatch) and select the females from your hens (over a year). That ensures you will never breed siblings, you might end up with a grand sire or great grand sire over his grand daughters, or a cockerel over his dam's dam. If that makes sense. Let me break it down by year.

Year one: breed your starters together.

Year two: take your original male and breed him over his daughters (I'll call this pen a) and your best young male and breed him to your hens (this is now called pen b)

Year three:
Pen A: Use either your original male again, or the now cock bird that was in pen B in year two, and breed them to your best pullets from year two (either pen)

Pen B: Take your best cockerel (regardless of pen) and breed him to your best Hens (including the females from pen A in year two)

Year four:
Pen A- Select your best old male (original, year two male from pen b, year three male from pen b) and breed to best pullets always regardless of pen

Pen B- best cockerel always regardless of what pen he was born in, bred to best old hens, regardless of what pen they were born from

And you just keep going from there.

Edit: missed some questions. Yes all that in only that number of years, I used to make the common mistake newcomers make and get a few birds of a lot of breeds and spread myself too thin rather than specialize, I think at one point I had more than 15 breeds/varieties at once. You can't make any progress that way, just can't hatch enough of one particular breed to make serious improvements. It did really help me learn a lot about varies breeds though. Now I'm just raising Langshans, Buff Leghorns and Spangled Old English Game bantams.

A pinched tail is when the tail feathers are held together tightly vertically or horizontally or worse both. It is a visual clue that the rear of the bird is pinched and narrow under the feathers which makes for a poor producing bird.

Well balanced on a bird simply means just that. The legs should be centered on the body, there should be symmetry. With either the Langshan or a Leghorn you wouldn't want a bird with a huge tail but a flat, undeveloped chest because it would look out of balance. Make sense?

First 40 pages. Sorry I should have said, I'm going off the Australian standard and this ( the Leghorn Club of Aus ) is as long as the standard describes http://leghornclubaustralia.webs.com/leghornstandards.htm Only about 4-5 pages. That includes colours as well.
Oh, the carriage as in the bird its self? ( sorry if I'm being difficult.lol )

Wow I'm slow. Ok I mostly understand now. Using one of your sentence I, I'm going to keep this goal firmly in mind. I am going to do the simple rolling system ( 2 pens ). I have got a large run that will be divided into 2. The nest and roost sheds will also be divided into 2 and I will rotational free ranging time. I have mostly everything I need and it is all coming together in my mind. Thank you Matt

.

I too started with many breeds ( over 10 ) but that was a laying flock. Now that my eating egg business is drying up I'm going into selling of hatching eggs and stock.
Oh I love Buff Leghorns. Buff, Blue and White are my favorites. Do you have any pictures of your Buffs you could share? You may want to PM them as this is a Langshan thread and I don't want to take over.

Ye well balanced makes sense now. I will just have to re read and look at some more pictures.

Thanks once again Matt, you are a hub of knowledge

.
( I may need your assistance in the near future

if that's ok? )

 

[brahmabreeder]

I would just like to add that the best way to learn a breed's standard is to go to shows and ask the experienced breeders if they wouldn't mind showing you. If there aren't any shows then you could always post pictures and one of the breeders on here could tell you the good and the bad things about them. You also asked why you need more than one pen if you only have one line. That's because one male is not going to be perfect for seven females. It just isn't happening. That's why smaller breedings are better. I use trios and have two per variety. One for my male line and one for my female line. With solid colored varieties that is kind of unnecessary.

 

[BGMatt]

First 40 pages. Sorry I should have said, I'm going off the Australian standard and this ( the Leghorn Club of Aus ) is as long as the standard describes http://leghornclubaustralia.webs.com/leghornstandards.htm Only about 4-5 pages. That includes colours as well.
Oh, the carriage as in the bird its self? ( sorry if I'm being difficult.lol )

Wow I'm slow. Ok I mostly understand now. Using one of your sentence I, I'm going to keep this goal firmly in mind.  I am going to do the simple rolling system ( 2 pens ). I have got a large run that will be divided into 2. The nest and roost sheds will also be divided into 2 and I will rotational free ranging time. I have mostly everything I need and it is all coming together in my mind. Thank you Matt .

I too started with many breeds ( over 10 ) but that was a laying flock. Now that my eating egg business is drying up I'm going into selling of hatching eggs and stock.
Oh I love Buff Leghorns. Buff, Blue and White are my favorites. Do you have any pictures of your Buffs you could share? You may want to PM them as this is a Langshan thread and I don't want to take over.

Ye well balanced makes sense now. I will just have to re read and look at some more pictures.

Thanks once again Matt, you are a hub of knowledge .
( I may need your assistance in the near future if that's ok? )

Not familiar with Austrailian standard but the US version the first 40 pages of the book have good info that applies to all breeds including definitions, explanations and diagrams of different body types, illustrated defects etc. the actual breed descriptions are probably the least important thing in the standard.

Brahmabreeder is right about going to shows and finding someone local that can hands on show you and teach you the finer points of your breed (and knows your standard). Also generally multiple small matings are better, but a rolling system has been used forever, it's not as precise, but over time (and with the right decisions made by the breeder) it's a good way to breed, especially for a beginner, and doesn't require as many resources, time, record keeping etc. many a Hall of Fame breeder I have known swear by it.

 

[Chad Cool]

Good afternoon folk, I would like to get me some Black Langshans. I have seen these before. Currently I have around 40-50 Marans. If anyone knows where I can purchase some hatching eggs Please let me know.

 

[BGMatt]

Good afternoon folk, I would like to get me some Black Langshans. I have seen these before. Currently I have around 40-50 Marans. If anyone knows where I can purchase some hatching eggs Please let me know.

Where are you located?

 

[Chad Cool]

Where are you located?

Eastman Ga