Lets talk about layer feed...

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ChickenCanoe said:
Right!
To put a finer point on it, a turkey grower will have much higher nutrient content of some vitamins and minerals than mature laying chicken hens need.
Some may be the same but some may be as much as double what they need. It would be better (and probably cheaper) to buy a feed formulated for chickens - at whatever age - than a game bird feed.
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That would be a plan except there is no higher protein pelleted food for chickens in any of my preferred feeds. If the vitamins are a problem, who is getting short changed or getting too many vitamins in the All Flock or Flock Raiser deal? Are there different levels of vitamins between starter/grower, All Flock & layer etc.? When does it become a problem for short term use? I have always used the age appropriate feed etc., but many here feed stuff other than layer to layers etc. I usually feed layer during molt also, because they don't all molt at the same time. I have decided to mix feed to take down the calcium & boost the protein this year, even though I never had a problem. Many people feed gamebird to their layers & I have fed Mazuri Gamebird Breeder & Gamebird Layena to my layers years ago. So what are the things that may be double what is needed for chickens in a Turkey/ Gamebird grower if you know? Thanks.
 
Cindy in PA said:
That would be a plan except there is no higher protein pelleted food for chickens in any of my preferred feeds. If the vitamins are a problem, who is getting short changed or getting too many vitamins in the All Flock or Flock Raiser deal? Are there different levels of vitamins between starter/grower, All Flock & layer etc.? When does it become a problem for short term use? I have always used the age appropriate feed etc., but many here feed stuff other than layer to layers etc. I usually feed layer during molt also, because they don't all molt at the same time. I have decided to mix feed to take down the calcium & boost the protein this year, even though I never had a problem. Many people feed gamebird to their layers & I have fed Mazuri Gamebird Breeder & Gamebird Layena to my layers years ago. So what are the things that may be double what is needed for chickens in a Turkey/ Gamebird grower if you know? Thanks.
Click to expand...
Have you seen/read through this book yet?
https://www.nap.edu/read/2114/chapter/1
 
Cindy in PA said:
That would be a plan except there is no higher protein pelleted food for chickens in any of my preferred feeds. If the vitamins are a problem, who is getting short changed or getting too many vitamins in the All Flock or Flock Raiser deal? Are there different levels of vitamins between starter/grower, All Flock & layer etc.? When does it become a problem for short term use? I have always used the age appropriate feed etc., but many here feed stuff other than layer to layers etc. I usually feed layer during molt also, because they don't all molt at the same time. I have decided to mix feed to take down the calcium & boost the protein this year, even though I never had a problem. Many people feed gamebird to their layers & I have fed Mazuri Gamebird Breeder & Gamebird Layena to my layers years ago. So what are the things that may be double what is needed for chickens in a Turkey/ Gamebird grower if you know? Thanks.
Click to expand...

I don't think it is ever a problem for short term use, depending on what you consider short term.
A week, 3 months, a year?
If it is poultry feed, it won't likely kill them, it just may not be optimal.
I see so many posts where people want to feed "what is best for their girls". So I usually try to give "what is best advice" but with the caveat that it isn't the end of the world - or their chickens.

The crude protein numbers you are seeking may not be necessary, especially if only feeding chickens.

To answer your questions more specifically -
"Are there different levels of vitamins between starter/grower, All Flock & layer etc."
The short answer is yes but galliformes all need the same nutrients, just different amounts at different ages.
Let's take a step back and let me be as clear as possible. Each species nutrient needs don't just turn on and turn off like a light switch when they reach different stages of life. We are feeding animals that have evolved in different ways and as they grow, their diet changes.
Turkeys and most other game bird species begin life eating primarily animal protein - insects, other invertebrates and small vertebrates. As they mature, they still eat those things but they begin a diet that is more energy focused like seeds and other carbs.
Chickens (gallus gallus) eat a similar diet but is more seed and vegetation based as chicks than game bird poults/chicks.
I'm not as familiar with anseriformes (waterfowl) but it is a similar progression as they mature.
Now for feed production, we diverge between products produced by companies like our friend's @GreenMountainEric. Purina, Nutrena, Scratch & Peck, Nature's Grown, et. al., that is in contrast to the mills that are owned and operated by large commercial poultry meat and egg producers.
A commercial egg, broiler or turkey operation that has tens or hundreds of thousands of birds in each run entering their barns has the ability to manipulate each feed run as their birds' maturities dictate.
On the other hand, companies selling to the public have a more difficult task. They are trying to meet the needs of their customers' birds while still making a product they can sell while it is still fresh. Basically, try to make a living in a very competitive market.
What we end up with is an acceptable product to feed each age group of each species. However, it is more narrowly defined. We end up with starter, grower, finisher, layer, all-flock et. al.
So, to answer your question about who is getting short changed or getting too many vitamins, it is the backyard poultry. A commercial poultry operation maximizes profits by formulating the ideal nutrient mix at each stage of life. They don't have mixed flocks. All birds in a barn and getting a run of feed hatched the same day.
When we buy bagged feed, by necessity, we skip a few stages along the way.
Again, it isn't the end of the world and one isn't going to damage their birds if - like you - one buys age appropriate feeds.
Commercial operations will change their feed formulations for layers perhaps five times during grow out, pre-lay and lay. Broilers will likely go through 3 formula changes, while turkey producers may change formulations seven times as they grow.
I'll try to answer your question, "So what are the things that may be double what is needed for chickens in a [game bird feed]"? as best I can without all the pertinent data.
I'm assuming most retail turkey grower feeds are different than game bird starter and are formulated to meet the needs of turkeys in the 8-16 week range. If that is the case and comparing that to the model for most chicken layer feeds, here are the things that will be significantly different in the analysis.
Crude protein and amino acid content will be ignored here because of the aforementioned difference in species specific evolutionary growth and natural selection of foodstuffs.
Obviously calcium will be significantly different.
Turkey grower will be 4 or 5 times as high in potassium, folacin and niacin.
Manganese, selenium, vitamin E, vitamin D, thiamin and possibly choline will be approximately double.
Most other nutrients will be close to the same.
All that said, I'm not the formulator for all these companies, I'm just giving you what are possible differences.
I'm not aware of any toxicity to laying hens at those levels.
The only cautionary tale I can offer here is that excesses of some amino acids can cause embryonic abnormalities when hatching so I don't recommend excessively high protein diets for mature chickens.
I wouldn't recommend switching to a turkey grower for laying hens but if you are breeding and have enough birds to make use of larger quantities of feed, it could possibly contribute to hatchability having some of these higher nutrient levels by mixing some turkey starter with chicken feed.
 
Last edited:
Thanks @Texas Kiki & @ChickenCanoe
I am only using the Turkey/Gamebird grower/finisher to supplement for molt right now. I may use it as a supplement year round for boosting the 16% protein in the layer feed for year round, don't know yet. I found a list of nutrient requirements for broilers versus turkeys & Vitamin A & D are the values that most differ on that site. Of course no one lists those values on feed bags & probably each manufacturer differs slightly. Comparing Poulin Grain Chick Starter, a type many use for layers, to T/G finisher there is very little difference on @Texas Kiki 's chart, but of course there are no values for vitamins. I like to shoot for 18% & used to love 21% layer with animal protein many years ago, but don't like the higher protein stuff alone now, because it simply means more soy. Love my GM soy free, because it has fishmeal. Great discussion, thanks.
 
Cindy in PA said:
...21% layer with animal protein many years ago, but don't like the higher protein stuff alone now, because it simply means more soy. Love my GM soy free, because it has fishmeal. ...
Click to expand...
Not just more soy but it also must contain synthetic forms of essential amino acids like lysine and methionine to fill the holes in vegetative protein.
I keep a bag of fishmeal for supplementing some chick feed.
 

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