Let's talk Golden Cuckoo Marans!

[rainbowchick]

Ideally, I think Golden Cuckoo are e+ based? I don't know what yours are based on.

This is definitely something that GCM breeders need to figure out. Golden Cuckoo will never get accepted as a standard color if there is no standard. I believe many breeders on this page are working on ER based bird (ie: BCM based cuckoos). However, I know a lot of GCMs are also e+ based, and that is also the locus you'll see on Bev's Maran website. I think the popularity of the ER (mostly due to ease of access) will likely win over the e+, but the e+ has some nice color features to contend with. I personally have e+ hens, and ER cockerels, so I could go either way...

Basically, the sooner GCM breeders come to a consensus and move forward all together, the sooner it becomes possible to get it accepted.

 

[Our Roost]

Thru ownership and most articles I have read up on, the main problem with GCM's is color repeatability. But then, no 2 birds look exactly alike anyway. Breeders and owners have been working with this problem for a long time and yet to distinguish a suitable show breed to base sop standards from. Its going to be a difficult venture unless someone takes the time to address standards.

 

[morbius18]

Thru ownership and most articles I have read up on, the main problem with GCM's is color repeatability. But then, no 2 birds look exactly alike anyway. Breeders and owners have been working with this problem for a long time and yet to distinguish a suitable show breed to base sop standards from. Its going to be a difficult venture unless someone takes the time to address standards. 

It is quite interesting how many color differences are there, even between siblings. I like the fact that they each look a little different, keeps the blandness from the hobby for me. I agree that it will be difficult for a standard with such variability and different E bases mixed in. Kinda reminds me of the early aracauna thing. Some american ones were tailed with muffs and beards. They could be shown as both, tailed and tailless. Eventually the tailess won. Much to the dismay of many breeders. The tailed/muffed/bearded kept being developed into the Ameraucana and was accepted. We could very well be developing Golden Cuckoos and Golden Salmons or something similar.

 

[Our Roost]

GCM's are to some, a breath of fresh air with a display of brilliant colors, especially coming from the males. On the other hand, the Maran's breed is noted for its most valuable asset which is its dark brown bronze eggs. A medium sized breed with tasty meat but not a lot of it. I attempted crossbreeding a couple of hens to another breed but the egg color didn't transfer. In fact, they retained their size as I much suspected also. Sometimes I think it best to just get the black copper marans and quit playing games with these.

 

[3riverschick]

It is quite interesting how many color differences are there, even between siblings. I like the fact that they each look a little different, keeps the blandness from the hobby for me. I agree that it will be difficult for a standard with such variability and different E bases mixed in. Kinda reminds me of the early aracauna thing. Some american ones were tailed with muffs and beards. They could be shown as both, tailed and tailless. Eventually the tailess won. Much to the dismay of many breeders. The tailed/muffed/bearded kept being developed into the Ameraucana and was accepted. We could very well be developing Golden Cuckoos and Golden Salmons or something similar.

One does not "develop" Golden Salmon. That color is Black Breasted Red. It is the most basic of all colors. Is achieved by winnowing out other colors until all one has left is the e+ allele with the Gold (s+) gene.
That's why it is so rare. The beautiful thing about it is that, when pure, the birds just self-replicate in color and one can spend their time breeding to type, not worrying about balancing colors and modifiers.
Best,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Now if one had true e+ Golden Cuckoo and could find a pure Golden salmon cock, one could winnow Golden Salmon out of that mixture. The trick is finding the pure GS cock. Some come from BCM matings and can carry modifiers which don't show up in their coloring ,only in their chicks. One could also do this with a Silver salmon cock, if it was pure. Have to make very sure it was a true Silver Salmon and not a Red Shouldered Silver Duckwing. Would take a bunch of study of chick down, tho. RSSD is the Silver Salmon with the addition of the autosomal red gene. Autosomal Red is a particularly "sticky" gene to try and winnow out. Just ask Bev Davis who took years to accomplish it. A noteworthy achievement!
Best,
Karen
The difference between Silver Salmon male and RSSD male is the RSSD male has a slight creaminess to the white hackle and the red shoulder patch is a bit darker. Easy to miss if one isn't looking for it.

 

[morbius18]

One does not "develop" Golden Salmon. That color is Black Breasted Red. It is the most basic of all colors. Is achieved by winnowing out other colors until all one has left is the e+ allele with the Gold (s+) gene.
 That's why it is so rare. The beautiful thing about it is that, when pure, the birds just self-replicate in color and one can spend their time breeding to type, not worrying about balancing colors and modifiers.
 Best,
 Karen

I guess I should have specified a barred salmon.

 

[3riverschick]

I guess I should have specified a barred salmon.

I think a barred Salmon is called Crele.
Best,
Karen

 

[morbius18]

I think a barred Salmon is called Crele.
 Best,
 Karen

Bev's marans call the duckwing creles, which appear as golden cuckoo, just duckwing based. By that logic, e+ based barred Golden birds should be called crele.

Since this topic is about golden cuckoo marans, it's not too much of a stretch to possibly consider them two separate birds as there is a big difference in the hens. The ER golden cuckoos appear as the cuckoo marans with golden = golden cuckoo, at least according to french standards. The e+ appear with a salmon breast, and appear more like a salmon marans with some gold and barring and a duckwing = crele (I guess if you go by Bevs Marans).

Which one is right, I really dont know as the Golden Cuckoo or the Salmon, golden or otherwise, aren't accepted by the APA. Unless I'm mistaken the accepted varieties are Black Copper, wheaten and white. And until they are, there are no correct or incorrect.

The snide comment about 'developing' the basic color of golden salmon, left a bad taste in my mouth. If it were so easy and basic, shouldn't it be an accepted APA standard? Shouldn't you be able to find them, being a basic color? Good luck finding birds of this variety. I could spit and hit a black copper bird around here, I guess it's popularity is why it is the first APA marans. I get what you are saying, and maybe I interpreted the message wrong, but I cannot stand smart a--es, of that's not the case, then I apologize. There is constructive criticism, then there are bad attitudes. One is helpful, the other alienates and drives a wedge into productive conversation. I'm just calling it like I see it, from a jaded retired Army veteran.

 

[3riverschick]

No, I am not a smart a--s. I tried 5 times in 3 years to get started in Golden Salmon. It is a very difficult color to get right because it is so simple and pure in a breed which is rife with color crossings and modifier genes. Plus, the cocks lie about their color often. Hiding color modifiers which only show up in their get. The hens., if they are pure, and the pure chick down never lie. They are absolutely definitive for proper pure color. Thu, the most scarce color in GSM is the pure hen. The most difficult color to detect is a pure GSM cock. Between trying to obtain a pure sire and dam, this color is extremely difficult to find foundation stock.
Now we can mix some other colors based on e+ and/or eWh and then work to winnow out GSM. However, the elephants in the bedroom are autosomal red and the Melanin(sp?) genes. They are tough to get rid of and the autosomal red is really hard. Look around and see how many people have Red Shouldered Silver Duckwings (Silver Salmon plus autosomal red) , believing they truly have a Silver Salmon instead. Then they wonder why the chicks aren't GSM. Or people get confused that a Golden Duckwing is a Silver Salmon and try breeding them to another Duckwing, then get these calico Duckwings, sigh.
I have so much respect for Bev Davis. She kept on plugging away at the autosomal red and now after 5+ years , looks like she has it winnowed out of her GSM. Just a huge accomplishment for the variety.

Best,
Karen