LGD Wants Inside the home Constantly

[chickengeorgeto]

I would try and find a way to keep him closely in touch with his future chicken charges. Even if it means I would need to confine a hen in a pet carrier and let the pup and hen share a close sleeping arrangement.


It is not crucial that the pup share the chickens quarters as much as it is imperative that the pup patrol the whole area and that it respond to any disturbance.

Then there is the problem of dogs bred for the pet (oh isn't he pretty trade) and many if not most dogs like that may be totally useless as a LGD.

 

[Sonya9]

Sorry for the delay, I actually moved my older house dog outside to the pen with him. She had become incontinent in her sleep and it was a decision I was struggling with for a while now anyway.

Incontinence is common in older spayed females, medication is often an easy fix for most older dogs. Ask your vet. You used to be able to buy over the counter human diet aids (active ingredient is Phenylpropanolamine) and that is what the vet prescribes for incontinence but it was taken off the OTC market for humans. These days it is easy to buy for veterinary use. If you haven't tried it that will probably fix the problem.

 

[Dee Dee 2]

I purchased a Kangal dog for the same reason you got your Maremma. The Kangal breeder has a trainer she works closely with. I wanted to do what you are doing ~ dog with chickens in the p.m. ~ yard in the a.m. ( I'm too much of a soft tee) Nancy, the trainer said NO that will not work. The working dog must be a working dog. My suggestion would be to get a 'pinch' collar and VERY securely, with a LIGHT CHAIN, tie the dog out in the area where the birds are in the day. In the barn with the birds at night. He is not going to like this very much at first but he will learn, esp. as he gets older. Some people think pinch collar are mean but they are really more humane than choke collars. Do not tie the dog with a rope ~ he will chew through it and get loose. These guarding dogs are totally different in the brain than 'pets'. And it only takes them ONCE to learn an unwanted habit. And a whole lot of "undoing." All I can say is "tuff love". Good luck ~ you will get it.

 

[Sonya9]

I purchased a Kangal dog for the same reason you got your Maremma. The Kangal breeder has a trainer she works closely with. I wanted to do what you are doing ~ dog with chickens in the p.m. ~ yard in the a.m. ( I'm too much of a soft tee) Nancy, the trainer said NO that will not work. The working dog must be a working dog. My suggestion would be to get a 'pinch' collar and VERY securely, with a LIGHT CHAIN, tie the dog out in the area where the birds are in the day. In the barn with the birds at night. He is not going to like this very much at first but he will learn, esp. as he gets older. Some people think pinch collar are mean but they are really more humane than choke collars. Do not tie the dog with a rope ~ he will chew through it and get loose. These guarding dogs are totally different in the brain than 'pets'. And it only takes them ONCE to learn an unwanted habit. And a whole lot of "undoing." All I can say is "tuff love". Good luck ~ you will get it.

Uhhh....LGDs do NOT train nor tolerate pain/abuse like "pets". They are extremely intelligent but they were NOT bred to obey human orders. They were bred to guard livestock and think on their OWN and if their judgement failed they lost their life against predators. Humans are "livestock" if that is what they have bonded with.

Start inflicting pain or "physical" corrections on an LGD and you can expect bad things.

My Anatolian is not a "pet" he is a friend and guardian, he is smarter than I am when it comes to threats, he is incredibly loyal and gentle (because I am gentle with him) and loving and a great canine. He would defend me with his life, no question about that, at the same time if I tried to hurt him in the name of discipline it would NOT work out well for me.

To the op...google "lgd listserve" and sign up for that email list, you can ask your questions and get great advice.

 

[Dee Dee 2]

Sonya9 , You are absolutely 100 % correct. When mentioning the 'pinch' collar I in no way wished to suggest rough or mean treatment of the dog. I was only suggesting the best collar, if he lunged, or went after the chickens when tied. It would correct him with actually the least amount of discomfort. I really don't care for choke chains. I have found a gentle tug on a pinch collar, if necessary, works better. Thank you for your post ~ it was 'spot on'.

 

[Spanishchick]

Sorry for the delay, I actually moved my older house dog outside to the pen with him. She had become incontinent in her sleep and it was a decision I was struggling with for a while now anyway. I'm not trying to be too hard on him. I am out there every single day tending to his needs as well as my birds needs. He hasn't just been ditched in the middle of a field with bowls of food and water for company. My problem is all the experts and books seem to say an lgd not staying with the stock is an lgd not protecting that stock. Some even implying that if a lgd prefers to be near the house/humans and refuses to stay with their stock to be not suited as a lgd at all but rather a (protective) farm/house dog. This is why I'm at all concerned about the behavior.

My farm isn't under heavy predation right now. But to give you a better Idea of when it is and what to; I had 20 Australorp chicks and 3 Banty Sultans I got last spring. 1 Australorp and 2 Sultans died of natural causes during brooding. 15 Australorps died to 2 dog attacks(13) and 1 fox attack(2) and the remaining Sultan died to an Owl or Hawk during summer (this one I did not witness). I got 20 more chicks in fall, this time EErs, 18 died or had to be put down after a hawk attack that left them horribly mangled (they were fully-feathered adolescents in rabbit cages and the hawk pulled them through the gaps trying to eat what it could - it looked like a raccoon got them but I had to run the hawk off myself so I know better). It is now nearing a year of this game; I purchased 43 chicks total, 3 died of natural causes, 34 died to predation, and only 6 lived to this point. Hawks and dogs are my biggest problems (and in foxes in previous years). I've seen and dealt with possums, snakes, and raccoons being in and around my coop but none of them managed to do any damage. (the raccoon did bite one of my birds but he only got a mouthful of feathers before the house dog ran him off proper, that hen is still alive today)

So yes, it's a good and determined variety but he's already at least twice the size now of 90% of my problems. No coys or feline preds (other than passing feral cats), the foxes have gone away months before I got him, and the dogs I've had issues with were all small enough to wiggle through livestock fencing; about 1/4th the size Kobu already is.

I figured you were under attack.
How is it going? Sounds like a crazy year.

 

[Dee Dee 2]

Just a couple of thoughts ~ for what they are worth.
1. Your old dog may have crystals in his bladder. Or it may just be his age. If you want, try giving him a vitiman 'C' tab every day. The acididy in the 'C' helps disolve the crystals. Dogs that squat and pee a lot have this problem. Also dogs that are difficult to house train. The crystals in the bladder irritate it and they get the sinsation that they need to urinate. I had a lab with this problem and the 'C' cleared it up. I am thinking Apple Cider vinigar, 1TBS. gal. h2o may do the same thing. From what I can determine from lots of research, if your are using A.C.V. it MUST be the one with the 'mother'.
2. Your new LGD is just a puppy. Give him time. He won't want to 'go to work' until he is about a year old. Getting him 'snipped' at about 9 mo. will help and he will also put those hormones into growth. Horses, dogs, that are castrated grow larger and stronger quicker. I would still suggest he be kept next to the chickens as much as posssible. Don't worry these LGD are hard wired to do thier job as long as we don't try and turn them into pets. I am going to be touching base with my Kangal dog trainer as to the advancement of Naziers training. If she has suggestions that you might benifit from I'll pass them along. If I am being too pushey and you rather I 'butt out' just let me know. I will understand. Best Wishes !

 

[Rin]

@ chickengeorgeto - I'm expecting a batch of about 35 chicks in spring and I'm seriously considering doing something like that only with an outdoor brooder that can be placed in the kennel with Kobu (the LGD).

@ Sonya9 - The vet has said it's purely behavioral as she has nothing wrong with her physically in that way. *shrugbug* My theory is it's related to her allergy medication but she needs that.

@ Dee Dee 2 and Sonya9 - To be fair to Deedee, the breeder even suggested a shock collar if I was experiencing any chicken lunging/chasing as the dog would not see you as the source of the unpleasant effect since in theory you should not even be in sight. I tried tethering on a normal nylon but the way my property is there is just no safe way for him to be tethered even on that. It's too easy for him to get hung up as my property is covered in thick woody brush that grows constantly and rapidly throughout the year. I'm hoping to just keep up on training what I want him to do with just scolding/praising but....

After having him in the kennel for a while now; almost everything is going well except, he fence fights with the rooster. The rooster puffs up and tries to attack through holes in the chainlink and Kobu barks fearfully at him which encourages the rooster so much I wind up seeing both of them trying to get a piece of each other. He ONLY does this with the rooster. He lays down in the presence of the other birds.... I know he's not being defensive against the rooster now (I'll explain in a second how I know the difference), but I still worry if this is it for that rooster and if I should start over with male chicks alongside the LGD and have a nice roast bird.... IDK. I might anyway because this rooster attacks me too anytime my back is turned. I think I might just stick to polish, sultans, and faverolles and reduce my australorps to one or two hens as they are really nasty to other breeds of hen but that's a discussion for another thread.


Now to the explanation! Today, I got to witness a real "guarding" bark, and it is frightening! I have a cat I rescued to re-home. Kobu has never met him before. I went outside to feed Kobu and Farrah and didn't realize the cat slipped out after me. While dumping food in Kobu's dish he suddenly stopped all interest in his food and charged past me to the chainlink fence behind me and let forth a guttural roar of a bark. This was the sort of bark that made your blood run cold and quite clearly meant "I WILL kill you". The cat bolted back to the house and waited at the door for me, far from the sight of the dog. The second the cat was gone, Kobu went back to his food quite happily as if nothing had happened. This young and I'm already extremely glad he is on my side because holy crap. I would not have want that coming at me, puppy or not.

EDIT - forgot to mention I'll look into those mailing lists/websites as soon as I get a day off.

 

[Sonya9]

Please remember this is a very very young pup! I don't care how "big" he looks, he is still a very small little guy. A five year old child may be larger than "most backyard predators" but that doesn't mean a little 5 year old kid could take them on! Both the child and the pup are still babies! I know with Anatolians/Kangals the Turks do not consider them to be fully mature until they are 4 years old, they may start guarding at around a year but mentally they are slow to mature.

And yeah their serious bark/threat does make your blood run cold. First time I got that bark I had my boy for about 2 weeks (he was a little over a year) and he stole a chewy. I have always been able to take bones or whatever from my dogs, including Dobermans without any problem. I tried to take that chewey and he put the fear of God into me! I was shocked and freaked out by it, I didn't realize that is normal for many of them as adults. Needless to say I don't try to take his chewies anymore.

Regarding the "breeders" suggestion of using a shock collar on a tiny pup. My god...I have no words.... This little pup is supposed to bond and guard your chickens, if you start shocking the heck out of him he could either become AFRAID of the chickens or worse associate the pain WITH the chickens and hate them. You want your livestock guardian to be fearless and confident, shocking a very young pup especially around the chickens is not imo a good idea.

I strongly suggest you consult with other experienced LGD folks as anyone can call themselves a "breeder" even if they have very little actual knowledge. Having dogs for years does not make an expert.

I am happy to say my 5 year old LGD seems to be taking a strong healthy interest in the new chicks. He frequently checks the brooder to see what they are doing. He even jumped one of my other dogs when she was obviously hoping she could get at them through the pen (now she stays away from the chicks when he is around). I expect he will make sure to keep an eye on "our chicks" when the are in the backyard coop.


(please disregard the messy looking boxes in the pic, the crate door is covered in clear plastic).

 

[Dee Dee 2]

Hello, To the lgd puppy owner. Sonya9 is right ! (again

) The last thing I would do is put a shock collar on this dog ! One zap and you could ruin this dog f o e v e r ! The spat between rooster and pup is actually a good thing and a great training opportunity. Nancy, my go to trainer, who is a REAL dog trainer says: Put dog in with chickens with a strong collar, ONLY 2 finger space between collar and dogs neck. A pinch collar is recommended. Attach a sturdy rope. If you have a chicken that will peck or attack the dog let that happen. Be there, good grip on rope. If puppy tries to "get" the chicken, yank the rope HARD and YELL NO ! Ideally the bird will get in a shot at the dogs nose. Try and be as far away from the dog as safely (for the bird) as possible. This will quickly teach the dog 1. they shouldn't try and 'eat' the birds, 2. if they try, little birdie can inflict pain. I would DEFIANTLY have another person in the pen with a large stick, net or something to knock the roo out of the way if needed. Roo's often try and spur the eyes. If it were me I would wrap the roos spurs first. These lgd are a total different mind set than pets. If you have never had one before it is a process with YOU learning how they are 'hard wired'. Oh but they are so amazing and wonderful ! The 'almost' cat attack shows you have a great lgd. All I can say is don't let this dog get away with ANY unwanted behavior ~ ever. DO NOT hit the dog for correction. Get in his face, or have his attention and then YELL at him as loudly as you can. Good luck ~ you will do fine.