Line breeding: how do I get started?

[3riverschick]

thanks I'm going to be working with some pretty simple breeds it sounds like. I'm working with EE's, BLRW, And RC Light brown leghorn. Thanks a lot great info.

Hi ! ,
BLRW are a very complicated breed to breed to feather
. Usually the more complicated the pattern, the more difficult it is to breed.
In this case you have 2 colors with lacing added into the equation. EE's are a mutt chicken derived from Araucanas
and Ameraucanas. It would be easier if you were working
with one of the recognized breeds like Araucanas or
Ameraucanas. That way you can start with birds from a
nice line-bred gene pool and have some stability in your
gene pool. RC Light leghorns are already bred to a very
high standard. If you are ging to compete, then you'll want
to source your stock from one of these fine flocks.
Rosecomb has special challenges associated with it :
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/908297/genetics-of-the-rose-comb#post_13816375
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
All of this begs the question, "What is a "simple"
breed to start with ? If one wants to line-breed, then
best success lays within an established breed with a
literary history in the English language. With multiple
vintage, line-bred strains winning in quality competition
over multiple generations. A breed without the genetic
"complexities" mentioned above. What other qualities
does "a simple breed to start with" possess?
Best,
Karen

 

[Yoyo with chick]

thanks I'm going to be working with some pretty simple breeds it sounds like. I'm working with EE's, BLRW, And RC Light brown leghorn. Thanks a lot great info.

Hi ! ,
BLRW are a very complicated breed to breed to feather
. Usually the more complicated the pattern, the more difficult it is to breed.
In this case you have 2 colors with lacing added into the equation. EE's are a mutt chicken derived from Araucanas
and Ameraucanas. It would be easier if you were working
with one of the recognized breeds like Araucanas or
Ameraucanas. That way you can start with birds from a
nice line-bred gene pool and have some stability in your
gene pool.  RC Light leghorns are already bred to a very
high standard. If you are ging to compete, then you'll want
to source your stock from one of these fine flocks.
 Rosecomb has special challenges associated with it :
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/908297/genetics-of-the-rose-comb#post_13816375
 Best Regards,
 Karen

The BLRW is more of an experiment. I've got some one who can help me with them too... The person that I got them from is very knowledgeable about the breed. I won't be breeding any splash though just black and blue. Because I have a black roo and splash hen. The EE I won't be line breeding they are being out bred. But the RC Light Brown Leghorn I will be line breeding. Also I have hatched my first Batch of chicks this year for my EE's and will hatch my first out of my BLRW when I get back. Then I haven't got my RC Light Brown Leghorns later this year. Thanks!

 

[Yoyo with chick]

Hi,
All of this begs the question, "What is a "simple"
breed to start with ? If one wants to line-breed, then
best success lays within an established breed with a
literary history in the English language. With multiple
vintage, line-bred strains winning in quality competition
over multiple generations. A breed without the genetic
"complexities" mentioned above.  What other qualities
does "a simple breed to start with" possess?
 Best,
 Karen

sry I missed the rose comb the first time...

 

[Tuhmu]

Idk if this has been covered, didn't get a chance to read the whole forum yet but here is some info I came across awhile back. Not sure who the author is or who originally posted it though, so all credit to unknown helpful person.


**** I believe this to be the most practical and probably the best overall breeding system for poultry. It simply consists of breeding cocks to pullets and cockerels to hens. Yes, it requires at least two pens for each breed or variety, but it requires minimal record keeping, prevents extremes in breeding and helps to select for both vigor and uniformity. The system is also relatively forgiving of mistakes in selection or an introduction of new stock that does not combine well with an established flock. These problems will tend to correct themselves in future cycles.
Here is the formula for starting with a trio of Javas. (Note: Most old time breeders would not use less than two trios of anything, because that was not “deep enough” and preferred a “breeding” of two males and eight to ten hens).
But, in this case, we are starting with an initial trio. Let us say in a single season we raise thirty Javas (15 of each sex). From these, we would keep the three best males and eight or ten of the best females. The rest we sell or eat. The next breeding season, the old male is mated to the pullets and the best cockerel is mated to the old hens. The other two cockerels are spares and show birds. A rule of thumb is always to keep at least half as many spare males as you had breeding males and never keep less than two. This system can be expanded to any size, but when in full swing, it should have at least four males and twenty females.
The following year the two old cocks (the cockerel is over a year old now) are teamed with the 10 best pullets. The young (year old) hens join their mothers with the two best cockerels and the system is now running well.
After each season, the old birds are combined and culled to the two best cocks and the best ten hens. The best two cockerels and the ten best pullets are selected from the young birds. The pullets are teamed with the cocks and the hens with the cockerels. The breeder is ready for the following season.
Old time breeder, Bruce Lentz, would often have “side matings”. This might be unrelated stock from another breeder or culls that had one or more very desirable characteristics. He might work with these birds for years until he got them to the desired state of perfection. Then, they would be slowly worked in on the pullet and cockerel side of his regular matings.
The complaints I have heard about this system are that it is too easy; anybody can do it; it is not breeding, and it depends upon your ability to select breeders or cull.
The answer? It is easy; anybody can do it; it is breeding, and any system depends upon your ability to select breeders. This system will maintain a viable population while you develop the art. ********

May help you get started if anything, hope it helps!

 

[chooks4life]

Agree about not linebreeding EE's or any birds with ear tuft genetics, or any other lethal genes... Obvious problems there.

Asides from that, sounds like the OP has some beautiful birds chosen for their projects. Good luck with them.

Interesting info Levy, I think I know where you got it as I reckon I've read that thread before... Can't recall the name offhand though.

Do you know why they're using cockerels to hens and roosters to pullets? I suspect it's just for the speed of the breeding program since they can take decades, but if you heard/read another reason stated I'd be curious to know it.

I only breed my stock under a year old for cullers, munchies that is, as they like pretty much all animals tend to produce sub-par offspring before they've hit prime physical maturity. Never got an animal worth breeding out of an underage parent, doesn't matter if the other parent is in its prime. Same for very old animals though some of those still throw some decent offspring, just nowhere near as often as they used to.

Best wishes.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Greetings!

Neither THE BLRW nor EE are standardized. The former is a challenge and the latter isn't really worth your time; they are true mutts. Especially if you really want to learn how to do this well, I wouldn'tmess with either of them. If you simply want them to look at them, then I'd recommend just keeping a few in a mixed egg flock.

The Rose Comb Light Brown Leghorns, however, are an excellent choice. Don't worry about any RC genetic issues they actually will not impact the backyard breeder. The Brown Leghorn has a rich history and a strong backing with some of the best breeders in the APA/ABA community. Start with the best stock you can. Mark Atwood is a good beginning. Then just communicate actively with the American Brown Leghorn Club. You'll learn a lot real fast.

As a note, there is an enormous difference between hatchery EE and standard-bred Ameraucanas, If it's about the blue egg, then procuring some true Ameraucanas would be the ideal.

 

[gjensen]

Yes, it would make little sense to line breed EEs. There is no standard to breed to. The whole idea is to have some vigorous egg layers of blue AND green eggs. The whole idea is for them to be mixed and variable.

Like I mentioned earlier. Line breeding is about emphasizing an individual or individuals. Whether or not that is what is intended, that is the result. When you mate a sire's daughters back to the sire, you are accentuating his influence. When you mate sons back to a dam(s) you are concentrating the genetics from that female(s). These tings should be done for a reason and a purpose. I have to really like an individual to "double" up the influence. Otherwise, I am looking at what I have and what I need and where my problems are. Then making (hopefully) appropriate decisions on who goes with who. Line breeding fixes the good and the bad.

Now if that individual that outshines the rest is identified, then certainly I want to maximize the influence of that individual. Even if I am using that individual for a single trait.

I would even use a brother to sister mating in an attempt to set a trait or traits.

Line breeding is a tool and a method. It is helpful to understand why, why not, when, and when not to. For example is if a particular sire is not producing a good average of good birds to another, why would I want to use him again on his daughters? Why would I want to emphasize an individual cock bird that should be in the stew pot?

I think we can get too religious about these methods. They seam to have a romantic appeal, I guess. I agree in the importance of these structures, but we seam to want to go their before we even identify anything worth moving forward with. A lot of newbies like myself, tend to want to focus on the method more than the traits found in individual birds. I say get moving forward, and identify something that is worth emphasizing. Then line breed with that superior individual.

 

[Farmer Viola]

I only breed my stock under a year old for cullers, munchies that is, as they like pretty much all animals tend to produce sub-par offspring before they've hit prime physical maturity. Never got an animal worth breeding out of an underage parent, doesn't matter if the other parent is in its prime. Same for very old animals though some of those still throw some decent offspring, just nowhere near as often as they used to.

Just to be clear, you are saying you only begin breeding at full maturity or at 1 year of age? or how do you determine the right age to begin breeding? is it after the first full molt?

shouldn't the genetic makeup of the egg be the same, whether it was laid by a 7 month old pullet or a 12 month old? I am also learning about line breeding, and I have never understood this aspect of it. I guess in some cases, you may be waiting for 1 year old maturity so you can be sure of the traits you are breeding. I know in BLRW in particular, they can show up with double lacing after their first molt although it was never there before (cull trait)...

 

[Yoyo with chick]

I only breed my stock under a year old for cullers, munchies that is, as they like pretty much all animals tend to produce sub-par offspring before they've hit prime physical maturity. Never got an animal worth breeding out of an underage parent, doesn't matter if the other parent is in its prime. Same for very old animals though some of those still throw some decent offspring, just nowhere near as often as they used to.

Just to be clear, you are saying you only begin breeding at full maturity or at 1 year of age? or how do you determine the right age to begin breeding? is it after the first full molt?

shouldn't the genetic makeup of the egg be the same, whether it was laid by a 7 month old pullet or a 12 month old? I am also learning about line breeding, and I have never understood this aspect of it. I guess in some cases, you may be waiting for 1 year old maturity so you can be sure of the traits you are breeding. I know in BLRW in particular, they can show up with double lacing after their first molt although it was never there before (cull trait)...

I agree that the genetic make up of the egg would be the same. But I have heard that you shouldn't hatch pullet eggs.