List of oldest U.S. chicken breeds. Is it correct?

[The Yakima Kid]

It seems you are talking about something different than I am.

What are the standards for the California Gray? How much does a hen weigh on average? How much does a rooster weigh on average?

Yes, I definitely seem to be talking about something different.

You are using weight as the sole criteria as to whether or not a bird qualifies as dual purpose or not. There are actually a range of factors - ratio of edible portion to live bird weight; feed efficiency in gaining weight (calmer breeds tend to gain more weight with less feed), and carcass quality - the type, texture, and distribution of edible portions.

The weight of an adult rooster isn't always relevant since a stag tends to be tough and strong flavored. One important point is the feed consumption to reach a certain weight before the cockerel is a tough stag - and how long that takes. The rate of return goes down dramatically in Leghorns between eight and twelve weeks, while a dual purpose bird gives a good rate of return up to between sixteen and twenty weeks. The other points regarding carcass quality and percentage of edible portion in a carcass have already been brought up here.

Which is why we are stuck looping on the topic.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

Imagine raising two steers - one an Angus, and the other a Holstein. For the same market weight of 1200 pounds, the one would produce a greater edible portion and require less feed to get to the same market weight, as long as we aren't discussing very young veal. A Holstein steer beginning a fattening program before 300 pounds can produce a very good carcass - but it consumes more feed than a beef breed, and although the meat texture is excellent, it tends to have more waste in the carcass, and offers smaller portions of certain high value cuts.

A dairy farmer who grows his own feed might make a profit fattening dairy steer calves - but if one is in the business of straight beef, selecting Holstein steers doesn't seem the most profitable choice.

 

[Bullitt]

Yes, I definitely seem to be talking about something different.

You are using weight as the sole criteria as to whether or not a bird qualifies as dual purpose or not.

No.

I am asking if you know where I can see the standards for the California Gray breed. I am sure Dryden wrote out the description/standards.

 

[cgmccary]

The RIR was in the works way before the Buckeye and was always a far superior bird to the Buckeye. That's just history. The RIR development history is perhaps the single most engaging of all American breeds. It is well documented.

A thought, too, is to remember all of the immigrants that are our original chickens. A lot is made of American breeds developed here, but before them there was a strong presence of breeds that shaped out poultry food supply for many a decade before these were even on the map: Games, Dorkings, Hamburgs, Spanish, and Polish. Then there came the Brahmas and the Cochins. They're not classed as "American" breeds per se, but they are more American, in the sense that they have contributed more to the American poultry landscape, than a number of the breeds classed as American.

While I agree with you that the RIR's development was in the works way before the Buckeye, I respectfully disagree that a RIR is a far superior bird (and that is "just history). Although for years the Buckeye was omitted from the SOP when it fell to near extinction, I refuse to allow the Buckeye to simply be a footnote in the American Class breeds. The Buckeye serves its role as a dual purpose fowl well. I have the advantage of the creator of the Buckeye own words. The creator of the Buckeye was a single individual, Ms. Nettie Metcalf. She never aspired to show the breed but her objective was utility qualities -- this objective I believe Metcalf fully achieved. Metcalf admitted that the Buckeye's "great beauty . . . in the future more show birds will be produced yearly." Again though, showing was not her objective.

She obtained, raised and showed RIRs too. In fact, Metcalf was the first to introduce RIRs into Ohio. However, Metcalf knew nothing of the RIR development back East when she created the Buckeye and in the beginning called her birds, "Buckeye Reds."

When Metcalf learned of the RIRs in late 1896 in an article in the American Agriculturist, she corresponded and exchanged eggs with some of the RIR breeders of the day. She found that the RIR were "bred to a lighter shade of red." She even described the RIR at the time of APA admittance as being "sorrel" in color. At the time, she had Buckeyes that were both pea comb and single comb. The RIRs were rose and single comb. She tossed her single comb (SC) Buckeyes and bred them to the RIR. The first Buckeye had superior color to the RIR, and Metcalf "never liked [the RIR] well enough to mix them" in her Buckeye breed. Particularly, she was keen on keeping the slate bar in the back of her breed. She put some of her SC Buckeyes/ RIRs in the shows back East. "All my single comb Buckeyes scored well under their [RIR] standard in the shows and were made use of in leading yards down East." Metcalf's rose comb RIRs scored well in shows too (92.5 to 95.5), but she said her 95.5 point RIRs "were almost buff to my thinking." Metcalf said, "I did think inasmuch as I had helped make the RIRs by an infusion, however slight, of Buckeye blood, I would undertake to get them admitted to the Standard at the same time as the Buckeyes, so fitted up some fine birds for the Cleveland show in 1902, both Buckeyes and S.C. RIRs, which was the first official showing of either breed."

The RIR has changed color drastically over the years since their creation and are no longer the lighter color they were originally. Contrastingly, the Buckeye is still the color it was originally created & has not changed one iota. This may be the connection to the past that inspires Buckeye breeders today. Today's RIR is a darker bird than the Buckeye, but this was not always so.

Did Buckeye color influence RIR color in the early years? Although Buckeyes are still supposed to be the color they were originally, but RIR is no longer a lighter color, but darker than the Buckeye, then how is this fact impacting the SOP interpretation of the color of the Buckeye today?

The Buckeye has never been wildly popular nor did it sustain the U.S.'s populace with meat for dinner, but how many rare breeds did? However, the Buckeye has survived as a breed and against great odds virtually unchanged since its creation. Today, the breed is flourishing. This is due in large part to the focus of the ALBC (now Livestock Conservancy) for the breed's recovery and to some very dedicated new breeders.

 

[Bullitt]

The RIR has changed color drastically over the years since their creation and are no longer the lighter color they were originally. Contrastingly, the Buckeye is still the color it was originally created & has not changed one iota. This may be the connection to the past that inspires Buckeye breeders today. Today's RIR is a darker bird than the Buckeye, but this was not always so.

Thank you for the information.

I have always heard Buckeyes were a very good dual-purpose breed. But people generally say that Rhode Island Reds lay more eggs. Do you agree with that? This may be the case because there has been more focus on eggs from the Rhode Island Red in the last century.

I suspected the Rhode Island Red was lighter in the past. What breeders are calling Rhode Island Reds are a reddish brown. Mostly brown. I suspect if Rhode Island Reds would have originally been this dark they would not be called Reds. I personally like the Rhode Island Red to be red.


Here are Buckeye chickens.




A brown Rhode Island Red. (The tail feathers even look darker.)





And this is a Rhode Island Red rooster on Cackle Hatchery's website.

And a hen from Cackle Hatchery.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

Thank you for the information.

I have always heard Buckeyes were a very good dual-purpose breed. But people generally say that Rhode Island Reds lay more eggs. Do you agree with that? This may be the case because there has been more focus on eggs from the Rhode Island Red in the last century.

I suspected the Rhode Island Red was lighter in the past. What breeders are calling Rhode Island Reds are a reddish brown. Mostly brown. I suspect if Rhode Island Reds would have originally been this dark they would not be called Reds. I personally like the Rhode Island Red to be red.


Here are Buckeye chickens.




A brown Rhode Island Red. (The tail feathers even look darker.)





And this is a Rhode Island Red rooster on Cackle Hatchery's website.

And a hen from Cackle Hatchery.

There are some very high producing strains of RIR. Buckeyes deal better with extremely cold northern winters. The utility of a bird depends on multiple factors.

BTW, there is no official *live* weight standard for California Grays, although Dryden preferred meat birds to be between four and five pounds dressed. A 5.5 pound bird would probably fall into the lower end of that range.

 

[Bullitt]

There are some very high producing strains of RIR. Buckeyes deal better with extremely cold northern winters. The utility of a bird depends on multiple factors.

Yep, but most people who are interested in utility care most about eggs and meat.

The Buckeye does better in cold climates than the Rhode Island Red because the Buckeye has a pea comb.

 

[Bullitt]

BTW, there is no official *live* weight standard for California Grays, although Dryden preferred meat birds to be between four and five pounds dressed. A 5.5 pound bird would probably fall into the lower end of that range.

There has to be at least a description for a breed. I am guessing Dryden described the size, weight, egg-laying ability, and other characteristics that hens and roosters should have.

The California Gray was created from Barred Plymouth Rock and White Leghorn. I believe the Barred Leghorn was developed the same way. I do not believe there is much, if any, difference between the two breeds. I suspect they are the same breed, and I have not seen any evidence to prove otherwise.

 

[gjensen]

I have no experience with Buckeyes, but those that do praise their productivity.

I have a little experience with Reds. Hatchery and not.

I think it is very hard to compare one breed with another. There is too much variation between strains.

Judging by type or potential it would seam to me that a Rhode Island Red is a good dual purpose bird with an emphasis on eggs. Buckeyes being a good dual purpose bird with more emphasis on meat.

The dark red of a modern Rhode Island Red is an improvement. They knew what they were doing. Ever seen a medium red bird after they molt out?

 

[Bullitt]

I have no experience with Buckeyes, but those that do praise their productivity.

I have a little experience with Reds. Hatchery and not.

I think it is very hard to compare one breed with another. There is too much variation between strains.

Judging by type or potential it would seam to me that a Rhode Island Red is a good dual purpose bird with an emphasis on eggs. Buckeyes being a good dual purpose bird with more emphasis on meat.

The dark red of a modern Rhode Island Red is an improvement. They knew what they were doing. Ever seen a medium red bird after they molt out?

The average Rhode Island Red lays about 250 eggs a year, and the average Buckeye lays about 220 eggs a year. So the Buckeye is still pretty good.

You are right that there are variations. That is why I talk about averages.

I would not call the darker Rhode Island Red an "improvement," as I mentioned earlier. But I understand you mean it was intentional. Each person has his or her own tastes. The Rhode Island Reds from hatcheries look better to me and they sure lay better on average.

No chicken looks good when it is molting.