Looking for advice from dog trainers/ behaviorists pretty please

[Rusty Hills Farm]

Quote:
This is so very close to what I was trying to say in my post--but a WAY better a description of how to do it.

Good luck with this.



Rusty

 

[Brindlebtch]

I agree with you that some Bull Terrier are strange individuals, but do agree with Jamie that the flipping over on his back and then letting him get away with it is probably an enormous factor in his undesirable behavior and that this event came at an unfortunate time in his development.

I do like what spiritdance wrote about the "come here", and woud be very interested in what Jamie has to say about controling the undesirable behavior.


eta You do know early this century White Bull Terriers were called White Gladiators in England, and used for dog fighting? You will have to work very hard to extinguish the dog aggression. I had an AmStaff that was extremely over the top dog aggressive and had to solve the problem by training an absolute rock solid no questions asked recall. Never did manage to make her dog friendly but was at least able to keep her out of trouble.

 

[aubreynoramarie]

okay, i really appreciate all of the responses, but i dont think anyone is really reading or responding to my real question with the exception of a few people. As you will read Most of the stuff that poeple are saying i should do is things i am already doing, and as i edited on my first page, IT IS WORKING AND THE DOG IS GROWLING LESS AND LESS AND LESS.

i am going to say it again.

we have a regiment with the dog that is working very well and in return the dog is growling less and less, like i edited in my post, it has gone from a few times a week to once every few months. i am handling my dog correctly as far as "showing him who the boss is".

i will edit my first post again to hopefully get off of the topic of what i should be doing with him, as i am doing all the right things as far as that is concerned.


i was wondering what the proper thing to do at the moment of the growl is, since i am already doing things with him that are working on preventing the growling. so thanks anyways guys, you are all pretty much saying the same thing (most of you) and as i have said, it is already stuff i have done before.


I do not believe holding a three month old puppy on his back for an extended period of time while he is being fearful is a proper thing to do to a puppy. this is my belief. Even caesar milan has admitted that this tactic should only be used in extreme aggression cases and that is is now OVERUSED by many people. First of all, this is a dominance tactic, and if the dog is displaying aggression out of fear, then hightening that fear, i think, is the exact wrong way to go. Also, NEVER in nature does a wild dog actually FORCE a subordinate dog to roll over on its back or hold it there. The canine rolls over on its own to show the alpha's dominence which is why i believe there should be better ways other than force to show your dog you are the boss, such as the regiment we have already implimented THAT IS WORKING.


edited to add: i hope that doesnt sound rude ^^^ i really do appreciate all of the responses... I dont dont think my op has been interpreted the way i intended it to, so i edited it...

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
Allow me to clarify here. I am not a trainer that tends to do everything with food. However, with behavior modification you have to use food or some other motivation to start the behavior in a different direction. This is a huge undertaking to rehab a dog with this kind of fear. Food and reward based training works first and foremost with most dogs, and I'll say most animals in general. After the animal has learned a new behavior then you can start proofing and MIGHT give a physical correction at that time. Physically correcting this dog is counter productive until the dog learns some new reactions to mildly fearful situations. A shaker can isn't what I would recommend either because its just another fear response. This dog can probably learn a new more confident response, and ultimately, learn to ignore and NOT react to what used to make him fearful.

Let me be even more clear. Behavior Mod isn't the same as OB training, its not "sit - treat- good boy". Its more like "lets find your least reactive trigger, set up that situation in the most mild way possible, get you doing enjoyable things within this situation and retrain your brain to accept this situation" repeat until the stimulous is very high, as in higher than the dog has ever reacted to before. It takes a long long time, but it works, i have seen it work many times. And it has to be repeated in this way in all situations the dog reacts to. But, the good thing about dogs is, once they can be successfull in one situation they usually are successfull faster in the next and faster still in the next.

Again, Aubreynoramarie: if you are interested then I can give you more information. If not, then I'll just step back

 

[jerseygirl1]

Thanks, Jamie, because you take the time to answer questions and the advice you give very much appreciated.

 

[aubreynoramarie]

Okay well sorry if I came off like a total jerk, I really didn't mean to.. This happened in the other forum to..

The reason I didn't want this thread to turn into what it did is because everyone had a different view on how to train an animal. It just becomes alot. I value byc members opinions because you guys are some of the smartest animal people I have ever seen. Most of these responses were way more intelligent than the ones I got on the bt forum a few months back. That's why when I was wandering around byc yesterday I thought " there's a ton of smart dog people I've seen on here, I'll ask em about the growling!"

oh and another reason I wanted to avoid discussing preventative measures is becase it is EXTREMELY difficult for a person to get a grip on this dogs personality without seeing it. He is a very happy go lucky Dude 99.9% of the time, but he growls when when touched while he's sleeping or laying comfortably 5% of the times we touch him while he's laying. I did nip this prolem in the bud three years ago and continue to work with h. I do think he's a good dog, I think he's a very good dog and I am really proud of how well he's done and how far he's come. I honestly dot know what kind of dog he would be if we never worked with him at all. He loves to learn and he loves treats and play and we have used it to our advantage over the years in teaching him acceptable and proper behavior.

As far as coddling the dog goes, I am clueless as to where that conclusion came from. Sure thees a pic of me hugging him and I call him my best friend and that's because I really do love this dog. But today he's coddled is untrue. He does not sleep with us, or get birthday cake for lunch, or get protected when he acts like a turd. I love him very much and that's why I've spent all these years and dollars researching, and seeing vets, trainers, and behaviorist, and I'm darn proud of him and darn proud of myself for being patient an understanding and watching him mould into a better and better dog every day.

But please don't think I don't value all of your opinions, I do! I am especially impressed with all of your successful stories! I just really wanted to know what you guys would do in a situation where you were being growled at in the very moment it was happening. I am going to try out some of the things you guys have suggested too, as they are things I've never heard before and make alot of sense.

Jamie I'm really interested in hearing what you've got to say about making him mote comfortable when we touch him while he sleeps. We have been giving him calm voices beforehand, then occasionally treats and a "good boy" when he reacts with a tail wag instead of a growl.
Same with him getting iffy at the pet store, good boy, see it's fun here!

As far as the dog thing goes, it's last on my list after the laying thing. He doesn't pull on the leash or snarl when other dogs approach, he usually ignores other dogs unless they are bigger than him ( then he play bows and does to them what he hates other dogs doing to him) or if it's an older mellow dog he just walks on by with a sniff and a little tail wag. However if a dog runs up on him, he will gie the dog a chance with a butt sniff, then we can tell if he's going to snarl or not by his body language, and we will move on. The first two reactions are met with high praise and treats if we have em. The last reaction is met with nothing.


Once again, sorry for always sounding like a jerk! Must be in my genetics or something. Also sorry for typos, this whole thug was written on my stinking iPhone

 

[HorseFeatherz NV]

I have not read everyone's post.



I just want you aubreynoramarie to know that I love, love, love Elvis.

 

[Brindlebtch]

I do agree that flipping him over at that time in his life was unfortunate. I do. But not carrying it through to its conclusion was also unfortunate. If nothing else to show him that nothing awful was going to happen to him just because someone flipped him over. He would have figured it out eventually and calmed down and then could have been given a big reward and cuddlefest for calming down and it would have made a BIG impression on him, esp at that time of his life. Instead, the big impression he was left with was fear and aggression will get him out of an undesirable situation. It was a mistake to let him up before he calmed down. Hence these current problems that are going away through wonderful and loving effort on your part. It was a mistake on the trainer's part not to prepare you for it, too.

I'me sure you are doing everything you can to modify his behavior and it sounds like you are doing very well!

A lot of training goes on behind the scenes on Cesar Milan's show that might not be as publically palatable as what is televised. Don't let him fool you that he is an all positive trainer - hes not - it's just what you see on TV.

What would Jamie do at the moment of the growl? I don't have anything constructive about that aspect and am interested in her opinion!

 

[redhen]

I agree..i think the letting him from the roll was a bad idea, and the basis for his problems today. When and IF you ever have to do something like that..you HAVE to follow it through...
Or you're in for big trouble later on...

I'd also be interested in hearing what Jamie says about the growling... what you should do RIGHT when he growls at you...

 

[aubreynoramarie]

Okay guys, that's a valid point, but it's in the past... And maybe it was the root of the issue? Yikes that sucks to think about.

I guess in the future if I go through this with another pup I will have to let the trainer know upfront that I do not agree with that method unless I have a grown highly aggressive dog who needs a good reminder of who is boss.

And Genny! Thank you! You got to witness my boy first hand, lol, he was pretty excited to see horses for the first time, hahaha. I can't believe how calm it was with him too! " why are you barking at me? I'm just a big friendly horsie!"