Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome!

[BevDavis]

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Originally Posted by ruth
I would like to wish Ms. Bev Davis a warm BYC welcome. We've all heard so much about you and I hope you find your visits to BYC to be enjoyable. I know everyone will appreciate your many years of experience and your expertise and your willingness to help us all with our questions.

I have a question that I think others share as well:

If the existing French standard for the French Black Copper Marans, that has been in existence for "a long, long time" calls for specific "standards", then why are the current "proposed" APA standards different from the existing French standards?

For example:

Leg color - existing French standards is pinkish to light grey - new APA proposed is "dark slate"

Tail angle - existing French standard is MAX 45 degree (not exceeding) and DISQUALIFICATION at 60 degrees. Proposed APA is 60 degrees (without losing any points) and exceeding 60 degrees.

Please help me and others understand how/why certain groups are trying to change the long-standing French standards that describe what a French Black Copper Marans should look like. And, if the APA accepts the new proposed standard, will it still be called a French Black Copper Marans or are we going to call it the American Black Copper Marans? Because, if it's accepted and we all start breeding toward the new standard, aren't we breeding away from the old one, and wouldn't the birds then not qualify as a French Black Copper Marans if being judged by a French judge based on French standards?

As a breeder, these are the most important questions I have because it really boils down to - should we all be breeding toward the new proposed but not yet accepted standards or should we continue to breed toward the French standards that are currently in existence and have been "for a long, long time"?

Thank you for any light you can shed on this area.

Monique "Ruth"

Hi Ruth

Thank you for the warm welcome.

To start with, it's a Black Copper. I don't think we need to tag a country name to it. We have tried to write the standard as the French have done but as with every other country the equivalent of the APA requires things written in their terms.


1. the proposed APA standard actually calls for a 45 degree tail angle, not 60. Any tail angle higher than 45 will be considered a defect.
2. The French standard does NOT actually include a DQ for tail angles over 60. The complete DQs in the official French standard read: "
Disqualifying Defects
Lack of size; white or yellow ear-lobes; light-coloured or black eyes; tarsi without feathers, black or yellow; triangular body frame;
horizontal or leaning forward body. Cock weighing less than 3 kg; Hen weighing less than 2.2 kg."



http://marans-club.perso.neuf.fr/standang.htm#standard


3. The proposed color standard is currently being revised, so any discussion of leg color should wait until the revision is completed.

Bev

Ms. Davis - thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I've been reading the various versions of the "standards" off and on for the past couple of years and it seems every time I find the "new" and the "old" and the "French" and the "translation" - I see something slightly different.

I know it would be helpful to me if someone would post a picture of the current French Black Copper Marans award winning roo (the Grand Poo Pa so to speak) and then superimpose a diagram labeling and pointing to the different body parts and the requirements and how it got graded on those areas. Because I know that a couple of years ago, when I first got my birds, I had no idea what some of the body parts even were much less couldn't figure out what color they were supposed to be. I've learned a lot since then but still have so very much more to learn. That's why this forum can be so helpful to everyone if all breeders will work together and not form sides but instead encourage and actually help one another. For example: If and when standards are decided and I have birds that have the copper you need and you have birds that have the leg color I need, we could trade a few.

Ms. Davis - We appreciate your experience and willingness to help us all learn. I sincerely hope we can all work together as Black Copper Marans breeders, but, more importantly, that we can show support and encouragement to those who have no desire to be breeders but simply want to own this beautiful bird that lays such lovely eggs.

Hi

I agree it is confusing, the French have changed their standard since I started breeding Marans and they tell me they will keep on changing it. There have also been several Marans clubs over the years which have produced standards. However, when we get this standard approved by the APA that will be it. We can't keep changing it, that is the reason it's so important to get it right at this stage. A lot of excellent work has been done by Ione to try and satisfy everyone and for us all to have our say.

Here is a link to the French site that might help you. Click here: silhouette anglais

I also agree that we should all work together and help each other as much as we can.

Bev

 

[Wynette]

Thought I'd go ahead and post the proposed standard in this thread - I think it was posted in the old one, but may as well have it here, too:


General Description (approved 7/26/10)

The Marans breed originated in France, in marshy areas close to the Atlantic coast. The breed is named after the historic port town of Marans. Evolution of the Marans type bird is said to have begun as early as the 13th century, with crosses between the local marsh hens and various gamecocks brought in to the port on ships. Gradual development of the breed then continued through the centuries, including the introduction of Brahma and Langshan blood during the late 1800s. Marans in their modern form first began appearing in French poultry shows in 1914. The Marans Club of France was organized in 1929, and that club established the first standard for Marans in 1931.

Marans have been imported to the USA in small numbers for many years now, probably beginning around the time that soldiers returned to the States after World War II. Over the years, birds and eggs have been brought in not only from France but also from countries such as England, Canada, Australia, and possibly Belgium and Switzerland. Importations of "English type" clean-legged Marans have led to the establishment of many clean-legged flocks in this country, especially in the cuckoo variety; nonetheless, the American standard adheres to the French standard calling for lightly feathered shanks and toes.

Marans are best known for their large, russet brown eggs. This is a defining characteristic of the Marans breed, so selection for egg color and size should never be neglected. Physically the Marans is a medium-sized bird with the character of a rustic farm hen, giving an impression of solidity and strength without being coarse. The legs are lightly feathered, but leg feathering should never be excessively heavy. Eye color is bright and clear in all varieties, never darkening into brown nor paling into yellow or pearl.

Economic Qualities (approved 7/26/10)

The Marans is a general purpose fowl for production of both meat and eggs. The breed is most famous for its large, dark chocolate-russet eggs, but it is also known for the fine flavor of its meat. Color of skin, white; color of egg shells, very dark reddish brown.

Disqualifications (approved 7/26/10)

Yellow on shanks or toes. White ear lobes. Pearl or black eyes. Absence of feathers on shanks. (See General Disqualifications and Cutting for Defects.)

Standard Weights (approved 6/11/10)

Cock….…..8 lbs Hen……6 1/2 lbs
Cockerel….7lbs Pullet…..5 1/2 lbs

Shape—Male (approved 6/11/10)

COMB: Single, moderately large, straight, upright, evenly serrated with five points; the blade not touching the neck.
BEAK: Long, stout and well curved.
FACE: Smooth, skin fine and soft in texture.
EYES: Large and prominent.
WATTLES: Medium in size, oval, skin fine in texture.
EAR-LOBES: Average in size, long.
HEAD: Moderate in size, slightly flattened on top, and long.
NECK: Moderately long and full, arched. Hackle abundant, flowing well over the shoulders.
BACK: Wide at the shoulders, long, flat, slightly tilted to the rear. Slightly more inclined than that of the female.
Saddle feathers -- abundant, saddle large and slightly raised.
TAIL: Full, rather short, carried at an angle of 45 degrees above horizontal.
Main tail feathers -- broad and overlapping, shorter than average.
Sickles -- shorter than average.
WINGS: Short, held close to the body, carriage nearly horizontal.
Primaries and secondaries: broad and overlapping in natural order when wing is folded.
BREAST: Strong, broad, and full. Well rounded when viewed from both the front and side.
BODY AND FLUFF: Body -- deep, long and broad, especially through the shoulders which are carried high. Overall, rectangular in shape.
Fluff -- medium in length.
LEGS and TOES: Legs set well apart and straight when viewed from the front.
Lower thighs -- strong and well feathered.
Shanks -- medium length, stout, and straight; lightly feathered down the outer sides.
Toes -- four long and well-separated toes on each foot. Outer toes lightly feathered, middle toes free from feathers.
PLUMAGE: Moderately tight and smooth textured.

Shape—Female (approved 7/09/10)


COMB: Single, smaller than that of the male; straight and upright, evenly serrated with five points, and fine in texture. No female in or near production with the rear portion of the comb lopped should be discriminated against.
BEAK: Long, stout and well curved.
FACE: Smooth, skin fine and soft in texture.
EYES: Large and prominent.
WATTLES: Medium in size, oval.
EAR-LOBES: Average in size, long.
HEAD: Moderate in size, slightly flattened on top, and long.
BACK: Wide at the shoulders, long, flat, and slightly tilted to the rear. Slightly less inclined that that of the male.
NECK: Moderately long and full, arched.
TAIL: Full, rather short, carried at an angle of 45 degrees above horizontal.
Main tail feathers -- broad and overlapping, shorter than average.
WINGS: Short, held close to the body, carriage nearly horizontal.
Primaries and secondaries: broad and overlapping in natural order when wing is folded.
BREAST: Strong, broad, and full. Well rounded when viewed from both the front and side.
BODY AND FLUFF: Body -- deep, long and broad, especially through the shoulders which are carried high. Should be more rounded than the male.
Fluff -- medium in length.
LEGS AND TOES: Legs set well apart, straight when viewed from the front.
Lower Thighs -- strong and well feathered.
Shanks -- medium length, stout, and straight; lightly feathered down the outer sides.
Toes -- four long and well-separated toes on each foot. Outer toes lightly feathered, middle toes free from feathers..
PLUMAGE: Moderately tight and smooth textured.

 

[Germaine_11.20]

Wynette you are wonderful. Thank you for taking the time to post that. And Don, thank you for your input on the Maran in KTCL's post. Very helpful too

 

[BevDavis]

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Hi

The reason this happens is because the blue gene is a leaky gene and lets color come through.

Bev

 

[pinkchick]

Thanks Bev. Is it something that should be avoided in the breeding pen or are they ok to use? TY in advance.

 

[snowbird]

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Just one more thought on the male. The first thing I noticed was the back and wide chest. The tail angle is very nice also. It is vertually impossible to get a Marans with a nice chest unless they also have a nice wide Back.

 

[Germaine_11.20]

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Just one more thought on the male. The first thing I noticed was the back and wide chest. The tail angle is very nice also. It is vertually impossible to get a Marans with a nice chest unless they also have a nice wide Back.

You make it so easy to understand. Thank you!!!

 

[Debbi]

The proposed standard quotes: Shape—Female (approved 7/09/10)


COMB: Single, smaller than that of the male; straight and upright, evenly serrated with five points, and fine in texture. No female in or near production with the rear portion of the comb lopped should be discriminated against.


Ok, here is a question. Everyone is critical of a faulty comb on a roo, but what about on the hens? Most of the pics I have seen of hens combs, were nowhere near an "evenly serrated 5 points". Keeping in mind that genes from both the hen and the roo are both playing roles in the outcome of the chicks, wouldn't it be wise to concentrate on the hen's comb as well? Is the show/judging point system the same for the hen's comb? Maybe if the hens had better combs, the next generation of roos would have decent combs?? So how much gene influence does the hen play here in the passing on of good combs?

 

[Barred Rocks forever]

how many of u guys get bigger cocks then the standard says i have a feeling i may have a roo that will exceed that weight

 

[BevDavis]

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Hi

It's something that just happens. I have used them before and it not show in the chicks I bred, I was breeding for egg color at that time.

I did a lot of breeding for solid blue Marans and passed them on to someone to grow for me. It's just got back to me that we have bred a solid blue male and have asked for pictures. I have had terrible predator problems this year with wire being ripped off pens and have had to screw doors shut at night. Thankfully one solid blue male survived.

Bev