Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome!

[VillageChicken]

Quote:
Wynette, On the old Marans site I had mentioned that they were different and Drom did the Kip Calculator and verifyied is as a fact The Thread #7852 and 7853 he gives all the info. Don also #7859.

Finally went back and found it, this is what Drom said:

You know, I just noticed one thing I didn't really pay much attention to before with the Kip Calculator.
The calculator has Brown-red birds in a different category than Black Copper.
Maybe everyone already knew this. I think snowbird mentioned something about the two being different some time back.
Anyway, I ran across it when I was crossing two Black Coppers who have recessive Wheaten genes in the calculator.
So, the calculator describes Brown-Red as a Gold-Necked Birchen and Black Copper as a Red-Necked Birchen. I don't know how I missed that before. (black Copper is dominant when you cross the two)

And also, when I crossed two birds that have a Black Copper Phenotype but an ER/EWh Genotype according to the calculator you will get a certain percentage of both Gold-necked Birchens and Red-Necked Birchens.

So it's not a different E allele or locus. A true brown red is just missing the Mahogany, which results from Wheaten crosses. It is otherwise genetically identical to BCM - same ER based gold.
I don't know if the calculator is the absolute truth in genetic make up on every breed. Henk knows his stuff, but I don't know that he's test bred every variety. The Australian Marans website says that BCM carry Melanotic, Henk's calculator does not include Melanotic in BCM genotype. I would tend to believe the Aussie website.

Interesting that "Brown-Red" isn't even supposed to be red, rather gold.​

 

[Darth Egger]

Speaking of red and mahogany, can anybody explain (or better yet, show) what exactly is the ideal hackle/saddle color for a BCM?

I imagine it's the same for the French standard or the APA standard (fictitious fantasy that it is). If not, then the French standard is all I'd be concerned with, second to egg color.

They always seem to have the same shade of copper on their shoulders, it seems to me that this would be the color one would like to see in the hackles and saddle? Oui?

 

[KCchickens]

Quote:
I second this

that's one of the things I'm most curious about, is the coloring in the hackles and saddle.... There's so many variations of the colour I'd
really like to know which is the closest to the right one.

I'm hoping someone comes along with a nice picture. I'd love to post a
picture of one of my boys but I can't figure
out how to upload with the iPhone

 

[flgardengirl]

The only marans roos that I have raised that have given me any real attitude have been blue copper roos. I have 2 that have done that so far. One was really nasty. Now he lets me pick him up and cuddle him. Sometimes he will give me that little sideways dance thing in the morning when I first let him out and act like he will still try something but then I just stand there and he just stands there and I pick him up and scratch his neck. After that he's good for the day. It is a little routine we have now lol. He used to full out try to attack me but hasn't ever done that again after I started really working with him. I believe he just likes the attention either positive or negative.

pw_quiltworks: I peeked at your byc page because I love to quilt as well. Wow, you really do some awesome crochet work. Let me know when the book comes out with your work in it.
I would love to purchase a few for my mother and grandmother. They would love that.

 

[geebs]

Copper... the proper color that we are striving for is Copper... from hackle to saddle... with as little variance as possible... That is the trickiness of it all... You usually end up with too much mahogany or too much gold...both of which are extremes in the copper balance.

 

[VillageChicken]

Reading back on the old thread I realize that talking genetics is like Klingon if you haven't studied it or had it explained.
It took me months of reading before I understood much of it.
I thought of a new analogy that sort of simplifies it. If you understand already, just skip this, or check me to see if this makes sense.

Think of a chicken's feather color genes as a "paint by numbers" kit.

Think of the e-locus genes as the numbers printed on the canvas. These are the genes that direct what color goes where. The "instructions" so to speak.
Every chicken gets two sets of "instructions" (one from mom, one from dad) that is why you see two symbols. (E/E, ER/ER, ER/eWH etc.) If the letters are the same, the instructions are identical.

e+/e+ means paint the bird based on a wild type red jungle fowl (Golden Salmon in Marans terms, Black Breasted Red in OEG terms, Brown in leghorn)
eWh/ eWh: paint the bird based on Wheaten pattern
ER/ER: paint the bird in the Birchen pattern (dark body with lighter head/hackle)
E/E: paint the whole bird black (if you have enough paint!)

When you crossbreed, you usually get a mix of these instructions, for example ER/eWh But the ER instructions are stronger, so they are the ones that prevail.
Sometimes though the "instructions" blend and you get something in between. The basic instructions listed above are listed weakest to strongest.

On top of your base instructions, you can have genes like Colombian and Pattern that modify the base instructions, and change where the colors can go.
ex. Wheaten + Columbian = Blacktailed Buff

When you hear folks talk about silver or gold, that is the base color of the bird, or what's there if you don't paint at all. The canvas, or ground color.
Silver gives you a white canvas, Gold gives you a tan/beige canvas. Roosters get two of these genes, Hens only one. That is why a rooster can be silver and carry gold, but a hen cannot.
This gene is one they often use in sex-linking.

Onto this canvas, or background color, areas are colored by black or red pigments or "paint". Most of the other genes you hear about change the amount or shade of paint. Melanizers give you extra black, Mahogany gives you a deeper red, Charcoal gives you extra black, but only for the head/hackle.
Or they "add white" to your paint: Lavender, Blue, Barring, Dun, Chocolate, Gold inhibitor all lighten black or red or both. There are at least two different genes that turn your black painted areas white. Except for Barring, all chickens can inherit up to two of any of these genes. They can have none, one, or two. If they have two, the effect is usually stronger. These genes are inherited separately from the "instructions"

These genes determine the shades of "paint" and how much paint. So "instructions" do not decide how much paint you get. Matching the right instructions with the correct amount of the right color paint gives you the correct coloring on a bird.

This is not a perfect analogy, and is oversimplified, but I think it might help folks understand the basics.
It may not be original, I may have read it somewhere.
Hope it helps a little.

 

[Debbi]

Well, all looks much better today for my "sick" pullet! She is standing upright, clucking her fool head off, jumping on and off the roost bar in the cage, eating and drinking, and both eyes are wide open, clear & bright!

She also produced 6 rather good sized, ah, presents in the cage, and I don't mean eggs!

Could she have been constipated??? Will watch her for a little longer, and if all still looks well, back outside she goes. The other girls will be glad to see her, as now Fuglee roo is chasing them!

 

[Organics North]

Quote:
I raised about 8 Blue copper/Blue cockerels this year... All were docile. If in with an Ameracuana cockerel the Ameraucana's have always dominated and been Alfa even though the Marans are larger. I really like the temperment and personalities of my Marans
ON

 

[geebs]

Villagechicken: Super nice explaination for us simpletons!!!!

 

[Darth Egger]

Quote:
So is copper the color that we see in that one place on all the males' wings? Up at the top-ish area, like the shoulder? Really, I don't know what is considered copper from mahogany.

I don't know that I've ever seen one where the hackles and saddle actually matched that. Those that come close get put-down by ribbonhounds in favor of golden straw hackles. Which is the lesser of two eveeels?