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- #40,531
The whole shank thing, as well as the white undercolor, has really, really been bugging me. I reached out to Roger Woo (VillageChicken), who has a keen genetic expertise to ask him his thoughts on dark slate/slate/slate over pink for the Black Copper Marans. Here is Roger's reply. I'll also post in the Black Copper thread for folks who may not read over here:
Hi Wynette,
About pink in the shanks: I find that all my cock birds when they are in full breeding mode - around hens and actively mating - will have significant pink to almost red on the shanks. I believe it is hormonal, and have read somewhere that this is the case.
That your BC [Black Copper] have enough un-melanized skin on their shanks to allow this to show through is more correct as I understand the standard. There are a lot of things that contribute to shank color, but on BC the primary gene is the sex-linked id+ dermal melanin inhibitor gene that keeps melanin out of the skin and shanks. In its dominant form Id, it inhibits, the id+ is the unmutated form as found in the red jungle fowl, and allows green or slate shanks depending on whether skin is white or yellow.
I have seen a lot of really dark shanked males in the past on BYC. Because of hormone activity, the hens are more easily melanized, and it is difficult to determine if they are id or Id. But using an Id/Id rooster ensures 100% Id hens because of the sex linkage. An Id/id rooster would hide the genes for dark shanks, and produce hens that essentially look alike though some will be Id and some id. The Blue gene also makes it harder to determine if a hen has the Id gene. This is why it is essential to determine if your rooster is Id or not. The pink in the shanks is a very good indicator. Some shy away from the pale shanks because they fear it is "wheaten influence" though it is the wheaten allele itself that prevents dark shanks, and if your BC are not throwing wheatens, then it is not from any possible wheaten genes. In fact because the wheaten allele itself inhibits melanization, any crosses with BC would potentially introduce the dark shank version of the id+ gene since wheatens can have clear shanks without the Id gene. Confusing, I know, but essentially it means that light shanks would not usually mean wheaten genes in a BC.
Most of the BC males I have seen from Germany have the pale shanks with dark pink between the toes and running up the inside. I would say they are pale gray with some darker scales, but not anywhere near slate. I think because so many folks had lines and flocks they had worked so many years on, prior to the standard being written, there was much debate about what the U.S. standard would be. In the end I think there was a bit of an ambiguous compromise that left things open to interpretation, with "pale slate", though anything pale on a rooster is likely to show the pink or dark pink depending on the male's hormone activity.
Interesting stuff, eh?
Hi Wynette,
About pink in the shanks: I find that all my cock birds when they are in full breeding mode - around hens and actively mating - will have significant pink to almost red on the shanks. I believe it is hormonal, and have read somewhere that this is the case.
That your BC [Black Copper] have enough un-melanized skin on their shanks to allow this to show through is more correct as I understand the standard. There are a lot of things that contribute to shank color, but on BC the primary gene is the sex-linked id+ dermal melanin inhibitor gene that keeps melanin out of the skin and shanks. In its dominant form Id, it inhibits, the id+ is the unmutated form as found in the red jungle fowl, and allows green or slate shanks depending on whether skin is white or yellow.
I have seen a lot of really dark shanked males in the past on BYC. Because of hormone activity, the hens are more easily melanized, and it is difficult to determine if they are id or Id. But using an Id/Id rooster ensures 100% Id hens because of the sex linkage. An Id/id rooster would hide the genes for dark shanks, and produce hens that essentially look alike though some will be Id and some id. The Blue gene also makes it harder to determine if a hen has the Id gene. This is why it is essential to determine if your rooster is Id or not. The pink in the shanks is a very good indicator. Some shy away from the pale shanks because they fear it is "wheaten influence" though it is the wheaten allele itself that prevents dark shanks, and if your BC are not throwing wheatens, then it is not from any possible wheaten genes. In fact because the wheaten allele itself inhibits melanization, any crosses with BC would potentially introduce the dark shank version of the id+ gene since wheatens can have clear shanks without the Id gene. Confusing, I know, but essentially it means that light shanks would not usually mean wheaten genes in a BC.
Most of the BC males I have seen from Germany have the pale shanks with dark pink between the toes and running up the inside. I would say they are pale gray with some darker scales, but not anywhere near slate. I think because so many folks had lines and flocks they had worked so many years on, prior to the standard being written, there was much debate about what the U.S. standard would be. In the end I think there was a bit of an ambiguous compromise that left things open to interpretation, with "pale slate", though anything pale on a rooster is likely to show the pink or dark pink depending on the male's hormone activity.
Interesting stuff, eh?
not sure about the colour of chuck what you mean? i did put it in photo editor as it was a bright day so maybe thats why? claude is his dad...
