Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome!

[BarnGoddess01]

Quote: Do you feel the blues are just easier? The the blue gene dilute something else in the Marans other than black? It seems the blue genes act on other things too, even in my other breeds I see that.

I do think blue is easier and more forgiving. I suspect the diluting effect of the gene as well. Or perhaps it just feels that way because we are allowed so much more latitude with blue?

 

[Wynette]

Folks, as you know, I've been noodling on this issue of white feathers. Specifically, are the white underhackle and solid white wing and/or tail feathers caused by the same gene? Then, I began to wonder if the white feathers are somehow related to the shank color questions we've been discussing.

I sent another note to Roger Woo - WHAT a fountain of genetic knowledge that man is! Anyway, here is his reply - I have gotten his permission to post here. I don't know that it actually answers, conretely, anything any of us have asked about at this point, BUT - it's awesome information, and it DOES clear some things up for me, at least - I hope for others, it will do the same:

As I read about melanizers, I realize we really don’t know anything about how they work in combination with other genes. Melanizers will work one way on the birchen allele, and differently on the wheaten allele. They do different things in the presence of Columbian or Darkbrown, which can hide in BCM and barely express at all. Gender and hormones affect melanization dramatically as well.

So as to whether the pale shanks are connected to white feathers (whether the fluff or tails/wings) I don’t think anyone can say with conviction that it is connected in general in all marans.

All the roosters I have gotten from eggs in Germany have had pale shanks. Some have had white in wing or tail, some have not. I have not seen any correlation. I am not seeing restricted melanin in underfluff.

I have seen a lot of pictures of overmelanized Marans over the years. Even show winners. It is possible that because of the lack of the Id gene to clear the shanks to pale slate, that folks have bred toward the elimination of some of the melanizers when selecting for lighter shanks. This could have an affect on fluff or feathers being undermelanized, but it seems you would be throwing lots of mossy hens at the same time. Hens are usually more easily melanized than roosters though, so it could not have an affect on hens.

I think that Co does play a role in BCM somewhere. Its effects in conjunction with other genes is still not completely known. It may be what, in conjunction with some yet unknown melanizing genes (some maybe being recessive) that gives proper neck hackle color in hens, and perhaps causes a bit of copper in the chest on roosters. It’s possible that it has an affect on underfluff color as well. None of this has been researched or tested.

Some folks might have seen a correlation in a particular line or in a closed flock, but in general, in all the reading I have done on the Id gene that clears shanks, I’ve read nothing about light underfluff. Black Wyandottes are completely melanized partridge (same E allele as your SPPR’s) and they still have fairly clear yellow shanks. You can have pale shanks on a black bird with no affect on plumage if it is done the right way. Leghorns are melanized birchen with clear yellow shanks. Proves the same thing. Shank color and plumage are not locked together.

 

[snowbird]

Hi all, Just an inquiring question. Since these females are from a single mating what would the difference be genetically. They all should be the same genetically I believe. It should not make much difference which to breed if one wanted to use one in a breeding program. #2-#4 the major discrepancy I see is the sweep of the back. #4 would be my pick if I was picking. They all appear to have white in the ear lobes and would be a deal breaker.

 

[snowbird]

Folks, as you know, I've been noodling on this issue of white feathers. Specifically, are the white underhackle and solid white wing and/or tail feathers caused by the same gene? Then, I began to wonder if the white feathers are somehow related to the shank color questions we've been discussing.

I sent another note to Roger Woo - WHAT a fountain of genetic knowledge that man is! Anyway, here is his reply - I have gotten his permission to post here. I don't know that it actually answers, conretely, anything any of us have asked about at this point, BUT - it's awesome information, and it DOES clear some things up for me, at least - I hope for others, it will do the same:

As I read about melanizers, I realize we really don’t know anything about how they work in combination with other genes. Melanizers will work one way on the birchen allele, and differently on the wheaten allele. They do different things in the presence of Columbian or Darkbrown, which can hide in BCM and barely express at all. Gender and hormones affect melanization dramatically as well.

So as to whether the pale shanks are connected to white feathers (whether the fluff or tails/wings) I don’t think anyone can say with conviction that it is connected in general in all marans.

All the roosters I have gotten from eggs in Germany have had pale shanks. Some have had white in wing or tail, some have not. I have not seen any correlation. I am not seeing restricted melanin in underfluff.

I have seen a lot of pictures of overmelanized Marans over the years. Even show winners. It is possible that because of the lack of the Id gene to clear the shanks to pale slate, that folks have bred toward the elimination of some of the melanizers when selecting for lighter shanks. This could have an affect on fluff or feathers being undermelanized, but it seems you would be throwing lots of mossy hens at the same time. Hens are usually more easily melanized than roosters though, so it could not have an affect on hens.

I think that Co does play a role in BCM somewhere. Its effects in conjunction with other genes is still not completely known. It may be what, in conjunction with some yet unknown melanizing genes (some maybe being recessive) that gives proper neck hackle color in hens, and perhaps causes a bit of copper in the chest on roosters. It’s possible that it has an affect on underfluff color as well. None of this has been researched or tested.

Some folks might have seen a correlation in a particular line or in a closed flock, but in general, in all the reading I have done on the Id gene that clears shanks, I’ve read nothing about light underfluff. Black Wyandottes are completely melanized partridge (same E allele as your SPPR’s) and they still have fairly clear yellow shanks. You can have pale shanks on a black bird with no affect on plumage if it is done the right way. Leghorns are melanized birchen with clear yellow shanks. Proves the same thing. Shank color and plumage are not locked together.

Wynette, a while back you posted an old post from either Tim or Henk saying that the Marans genetics will not work like most breeds since they are so crossed up to begin with. I will say that the white wing and tail feathers along with the white cottonball tail coverts are connected. In my own preference I would rather listen to someone that has experience breeding fowl. The genetic formulas mean very little when it comes to Marans.

 

[Zanna]

Hi all, Just an inquiring question. Since these females are from a single mating what would the difference be genetically. They all should be the same genetically I believe. It should not make much difference which to breed if one wanted to use one in a breeding program. #2-#4 the major discrepancy I see is the sweep of the back. #4 would be my pick if I was picking. They all appear to have white in the ear lobes and would be a deal breaker.

Good question! Genetics are still over my head though trying very hard to learn......... These are the offspring from the pair I sent you pics of earlier this year and asked what you thought about breeding and you said give it a try. Interesting what has developed. I am growing a few more out right now and will see if I get any that develop better. I may be back to square one and that is ok. Thanks so much for your input!

 

[snowbird]

Good question! Genetics are still over my head though trying very hard to learn......... These are the offspring from the pair I sent you pics of earlier this year and asked what you thought about breeding and you said give it a try. Interesting what has developed. I am growing a few more out right now and will see if I get any that develop better. I may be back to square one and that is ok. Thanks so much for your input!

Zanna, Could we see a picture of the male you would use with these pullets if you decide to breed them. With these pullets you would not want to breed to anything related regardless of how nice he would be. If only you had one of the Ron Pressley males pitchered a while back and someone said they were Pressley breeding and they sure looked like my Marans from the past years.

 

[triplejfarms]

Just a reminder, If we start with Marans or any other breed and do not that have real bad type and are untrifty you are fighting a losing battle from day one. If I could not get some Marans with good type, width and depth and good length I would not start with Marans if I planned on breeding to the SOP. I hear some talking about it taking five year to perfect a line of fowl, This is simply wishful thinking. If you start with fowl that have a narrow back and weak underside you are destined to fail.

Like I always say junk always produces more junk. Anyone wanting to work with what you have please keep us posted on how it works and how long you keep at it before quiting.

IMO who cares if someone such as myself enjoys the breed and "Working with crap so as you say" who is to judge i am not claiming to be a show person i have done it 2 times, , i wish i live did the states to have all the different lines you guys do but i dont, so i have to work with what i can get and personally i think my bcm roo is much nicer than some i have seen on her at least he has some meat on him i can eat my çull birds" 99% of the people that contact me want birds who lay dark eggs and thats the extent of it ..........so thats what they get they are not interested in SOP or showing a chicken is a chicken to most people..... i love my birds , think they are beautiful and work with what i can thanks for your input wynett

i was not offended.

 

[snowbird]

Hello Everyone
I haven't posted for a really long time but have been on the Marans Forum from time to time over the years. I'm wondering if anyone on the forum would like to take a look at my young 7 month old French Black Copper Marans rooster, Oscar, and give me any comments regarding possible faults or DQs. He comes from Cottage Hill lines from James Meeks breedings. IMHO he stacks up pretty well against the French standard, at least as far as I can tell. There are no side sprigs on his comb (I wish it were a bit smaller and perhaps 1 or 2 points less), short toes, squirrel tails or white feathers. He has nice shank feathering I think and it looks to me like his coloring is correct. Please forgive the lack of hackle feather on the back of his neck, I think one of the hens gave him what-for and yanked some out as there is a definite "bald spot" where they should be. I've tried to get a nice standing picture of him to overlay the silhouette of the 45 degree angle of the perfect Marans, I think he's pretty close. I'm interested to know your thoughts!

Thanks, Lisa

Zanna, these are the posts I was talking about. Breed something like this over the females and do another test.

 

[snowbird]

IMO who cares if someone such as myself enjoys the breed and "Working with crap so as you say" who is to judge i am not claiming to be a show person i have done it 2 times, , i wish i live did the states to have all the different lines you guys do but i dont, so i have to work with what i can get and personally i think my bcm roo is much nicer than some i have seen on her at least he has some meat on him i can eat my çull birds" 99% of the people that contact me want birds who lay dark eggs and thats the extent of it ..........so thats what they get they are not interested in SOP or showing a chicken is a chicken to most people..... i love my birds , think they are beautiful and work with what i can thanks for your input wynett

i was not offended.

Yes, you are right and no one really cares how you breed your birds. You take care of them and buy the feed so breed then any way you would like.

 

[Zanna]

Zanna, Could we see a picture of the male you would use with these pullets if you decide to breed them. With these pullets you would not want to breed to anything related regardless of how nice he would be. If only you had one of the Ron Pressley males pitchered a while back and someone said they were Pressley breeding and they sure looked like my Marans from the past years.

The only male I currently have is their Dad. He was supposedly Davis line but he was a Craigslist special that I grew out with 14 others from the same person and culled down to only him. Here he is last summer. He is now 2 years old.