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Good morning, and might I add..........HOLY CRAP! I always seem to miss the really good conversations. Awesome - I'm so proud of all of us on this thread, really, I am. It's so much eaiser to take that "up yours!" road rather than to take a deep breathe and re-read a post that inititally really bothered us before replying. This is EXCELLENT conversation, and I for one truly appreciate it! THANK YOU ALL for being civil!
(Math - your post brought tears to my eyes! Thank you for the kind comment.)
I love that we are all so willing to be forthright in what we have, what we are seeing, what we are working on. I am also one who keeps her birds a very long time. Don't even ask me about my silver penciled rocks. Sigh.....anyway, I have Marans that are 5 (I'd mentioned several days ago about a hen that molted hard and her new primaries are BROWN - no, she was not one of those brownish chicks - she always has been black black black. She looks pitiful now. I need to get some pics of her as I find it interesting.)
I agree with Barb that genetics is the key here. Don, call us crazy if you will, we all have differing opinions. No, I don't think geneticists have crystal balls, I think they just have a differing viewpoint from those of us not schooled in this area. And, let's face it - the more viewpoints we have, the more quickly we can move forward, as ONE of them is likely to have some key answers.
However, I am also a "cull what you can't use" person. And the whole issue of the cock birds not showing their true colors (
) until they're 1.5 - 2 yrs. old is extremely discouraging. Someone said, I think it was Debbi, are we not to use a cock bird until he is 2? I've been wondering that same thing. I, for one, am going to be hanging onto my cock birds much longer now. Used to be, when I saw an issue, out they went (I always have back-ups). But, perhaps I will learn more in watching these old males grow older.
Also - Don - what exactly do you have in the way of Black Copper? I'm not trying to be controversial, and I wholly appreciate your posts and insight - you have more years of breeding than most of us do, and that experience is priceless, to be sure. But - if you have Black Copper without the white - males that are older than 2 - PLEASE SHARE THE INFO.!!! You comment often about the "crap" out there, but how do we move forward - by finding AND SHARING some of the better quality birds without these issues.
I have had the white feather issue in my flock. It appeared last year for the first time, and I've been culling all that have it. I will say, however, that a friend who has some of my stock and is as committed as I am to move this breed forward has hatched a bunch of eggs from me these last couple of years, he's culled VERY heavily and has been pretty discouraged this year, as we, like most, keep the bar as high as we possibly can. It's been tough, because he's out of state so I haven't seen the birds firsthand. He say he holds his breath when he sends me a new batch of cockerel pictures, knowing I'll tell him to cull most if not all. He's hatched several that we could have used, but there are just some things that I really don't want to compromise on. Well....I am super excited that he finally has one that meets our own personal qualifications as a breeder male, and so far, so good - no white.
Anyway, as far as why there are not more out there without the white - I believe they are out there, they're just difficult to find. The Texas birds, I am told, are very good quality birds. I have some growing out right now, in fact (two batches) from a breeder in the south who has been kicking butt and taking names at APA shows all over the southern U.S. I am very excited about them. HOWEVER...the eggs they hatched from were 4's, at best. When I received the eggs and conveyed my displeasure at the color, he said that his females had been under stress due to storms and bad weather, but that they normally do lay much darker. So, the jury's out on them. I know we discussed on this thread long ago that it seems some of the best type birds seem to be ones that do not come from the super dark laying lines. I'm beginning to think that just might be true, but for sure, I'm not giving up hope!
(Math - your post brought tears to my eyes! Thank you for the kind comment.)
I love that we are all so willing to be forthright in what we have, what we are seeing, what we are working on. I am also one who keeps her birds a very long time. Don't even ask me about my silver penciled rocks. Sigh.....anyway, I have Marans that are 5 (I'd mentioned several days ago about a hen that molted hard and her new primaries are BROWN - no, she was not one of those brownish chicks - she always has been black black black. She looks pitiful now. I need to get some pics of her as I find it interesting.)
I agree with Barb that genetics is the key here. Don, call us crazy if you will, we all have differing opinions. No, I don't think geneticists have crystal balls, I think they just have a differing viewpoint from those of us not schooled in this area. And, let's face it - the more viewpoints we have, the more quickly we can move forward, as ONE of them is likely to have some key answers.
However, I am also a "cull what you can't use" person. And the whole issue of the cock birds not showing their true colors (
Also - Don - what exactly do you have in the way of Black Copper? I'm not trying to be controversial, and I wholly appreciate your posts and insight - you have more years of breeding than most of us do, and that experience is priceless, to be sure. But - if you have Black Copper without the white - males that are older than 2 - PLEASE SHARE THE INFO.!!! You comment often about the "crap" out there, but how do we move forward - by finding AND SHARING some of the better quality birds without these issues.
I have had the white feather issue in my flock. It appeared last year for the first time, and I've been culling all that have it. I will say, however, that a friend who has some of my stock and is as committed as I am to move this breed forward has hatched a bunch of eggs from me these last couple of years, he's culled VERY heavily and has been pretty discouraged this year, as we, like most, keep the bar as high as we possibly can. It's been tough, because he's out of state so I haven't seen the birds firsthand. He say he holds his breath when he sends me a new batch of cockerel pictures, knowing I'll tell him to cull most if not all. He's hatched several that we could have used, but there are just some things that I really don't want to compromise on. Well....I am super excited that he finally has one that meets our own personal qualifications as a breeder male, and so far, so good - no white.
Anyway, as far as why there are not more out there without the white - I believe they are out there, they're just difficult to find. The Texas birds, I am told, are very good quality birds. I have some growing out right now, in fact (two batches) from a breeder in the south who has been kicking butt and taking names at APA shows all over the southern U.S. I am very excited about them. HOWEVER...the eggs they hatched from were 4's, at best. When I received the eggs and conveyed my displeasure at the color, he said that his females had been under stress due to storms and bad weather, but that they normally do lay much darker. So, the jury's out on them. I know we discussed on this thread long ago that it seems some of the best type birds seem to be ones that do not come from the super dark laying lines. I'm beginning to think that just might be true, but for sure, I'm not giving up hope!
