Mareks in my flock?

[Fire Ant Farm]

And it's getting harder. My husband just examined my three birds with pinpoint pupils and gray eye with his slit lamp. He said what he saw in their eye is the same as what he saw in human patients with herpes infections. The youngest bird's eyes are the worse (the one with the gray eye) and along with the gray eye she also has a secondary cataract in what by all outward observation is her good eye. The diagnosis is Iridocyclitis caused by Herpes. That pretty well cinches the diagnosis of Mareks in those three birds. The condition in their eyes is painful to them. I remember seeing human patients with iridocyclits and the first thing they said was it was VERY painful. What DH saw in their eyes is called posterior synechiae. The definition is:

A synechia is an eye condition where the iris adheres to either the cornea (i.e. anterior synechia) or lens (i.e.posterior synechia). Synechiae can be caused by ocular trauma, iritis or iridocyclitis and may lead to certain types of glaucoma.

The one year old rooster's is the lesser in severity.

My plan is to keep an eye on them, no pun intended, and recheck their eyes periodically. When they worsen, or they are in obvious distress I will put them down. He speculates that they have possibly 20% vision in their affected eyes. We are also going to do a random check on birds with no obvious abnormalities in their eyes to see if there is a low grade inflammation going on.

I have to say these 3 were perfect patients. We've had 8 year old humans who wouldn't hold as still as two little hens and a rambunctious rooster did. DH said he had 40 year old patients that didn't hold that still.

Teehee. I think I said about the resistant breeding being a bit of a joke. Not really a funny joke and not meaning to ruffle feathers. The doctor I talked to said that usually by the time owners figured out who was resistant,they were no longer fertile. Implying that it is well, a bit of a joke. I really hope it isn't futile, but one article I read last night said that to breed for resistance you needed at least 50 birds, be able to keep who bred who with what results straight and be willing to heavily cull both old and young birds who do not exhibit the health traits that you are trying to breed into the birds. That puts a damper on most back yard chicken enthusiasts who think of their birds as being as much pets as their family dog or cat. And frankly, it kills me every time I have to put one of my birds down. I don't think I have the heart to do what they suggested needed to be done to truly breed resistant birds. Sorry. Don't mean to sound morbid. Not much fun hearing that your suspicions are spot on.

Bummer.

Oh, so you just mean breeding for resistance is hard. Yup, it's hard.

 

[microchick]

Yeah, very hard, especially for a small flock owner, but nobody promised us that life is going to be easy did they?

And yes, I'm pretty bummed, but nothing that I didn't expect to hear. Fire Ant Farm I find it really disturbing your narration of how your little visually impaired hen goes to roost early. I've noted this spring with the lengthening of the day that my standard sized birds are for the most part all inside and on the roost by 6:30, 7pm while my bantam flock are out partying......I hope that doesn't mean that they are all having vision problems. When I read that I looked at my husband and said that we definitely need to check the 'normal' looking chickens.

I'm just sick about this. My poor flock. I know they all won't succumb. I think that is what is so hard about it, looking at them and wondering who is going to be next.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Yeah, very hard, especially for a small flock owner, but nobody promised us that life is going to be easy did they?

And yes, I'm pretty bummed, but nothing that I didn't expect to hear. Fire Ant Farm I find it really disturbing your narration of how your little visually impaired hen goes to roost early. I've noted this spring with the lengthening of the day that my standard sized birds are for the most part all inside and on the roost by 6:30, 7pm while my bantam flock are out partying......I hope that doesn't mean that they are all having vision problems. When I read that I looked at my husband and said that we definitely need to check the 'normal' looking chickens.

I'm just sick about this. My poor flock. I know they all won't succumb. I think that is what is so hard about it, looking at them and wondering who is going to be next.

It's hard to say, it's just one hen - and while it's a small coop (just a trio), the others (who have normal eyes/vision) go to bed early because she does. I think if she didn't, they'd "stay up" later. It very well could be that just the couple who are affected in your flock are "starting the trend", and when they go to roost, it is leading the others to go to roost early as well (if nothing else then to "get a good spot".) But that's just a guess.

I keep "families" separate in cops with rotating paddocks of their own - I have five, will have an additional 4 or so soon in permanent housing. I find that age, breed, and disposition affect how soon they go to rest. For my limited experience, it seems that younger birds "stay out late" more, and the older ones (not really old, more like 2 years old) go to bed earlier overall. Same with the crowing - younger guys do it more and earlier, and the older fellas seem to want to sleep in a wee bit longer. (Well, like 5:45 instead of 4:30, so it's all relative.) Yes, I can recognize all their voices - Snape on his perch is about 25 feet from my head in bed. Can't sleep through that.

I'm rambling - I should go to bed now.

 

[seminolewind]

Microchick, her "good" eye has a misshapen pupil, sortof oval which is another sign.

Wasting is a very big symptom in Marek's. In fact in the beginning I thought they were eating but I wasn't watching them swallow.

 

[seminolewind]

I have buried so many chickens that I have gone to rows because I can't remember where all of them are buried. The symptoms/dying/death usually happens around the spring and fall. They all get a funeral and a prayer.

There is so much inaccurate information online that it drives me crazy. That's why I love Nambroth's FAQ because she's taken the most accurate and latest information in there all in one place. I have read thru vet school reference books. I have also read a lot about viruses in general because the more I understood about viruses like the cold, herpes, and HIV, the more I could understand about Marek's exposure, symptoms, resistance (especially). In 105 years or more there's been no discovered cure for Marek's. Like most of people vaccinations, chicken pox, rubella, tetanus, cholera, flu, small pox, whooping cough- our bodies are exposed to a tiny bit or sterile bit of the disease itself and builds antibodies (vaccine). So when the real disease gets to you, you already have resistance-meaning your antibodies are great enough in number to resist the disease.

With Marek's sometimes that's not enough. Cleaning, fresh water, fresh air, sometimes vitamins and more protein help the vaccine work better. I've used Virkon for years. It's a powder in a tub and it does disinfect Marek's virus. I spray the inside of my coop with the mixture twice a year. Every little bit helps.

It's still a very sad disease .

 

[Wickedchicken6]

Hello everyone!

I've been reading and following...basically trying to learn as much as I can about the various chicken diseases, Mareks being one of them. I've followed microchick here (yes...I'm stalking you)

because the thread was brought up in our discussions...lol.

First of all I'm so sorry for everyone who has and is dealing with this. This is maybe out in left field...but I wanted to bring this to everyone's attention. I read an article about high doses of Vitamin C from Dr. Gifford Jones a while back, prior to getting chickens. I thought about it tonight and went searching. I found his site and the info on the high dose vitamin C treatments I had read. I always liked his practical, common sense information and approach to things. I take Vitamin C and tend to dose quite highly on it when I'm sick. It's a water soluble vitamin. I've also used it on my birds. After I found his info, I started searching for more information about it. I found a lot more interesting information on it. I posted just a few of the links about it below. Can any of this information be helpful? It's regarding humans and viruses....but could it not be useful for viruses affecting chickens?

http://www.docgiff.com/medical_tip/never-heard-intravenous-vitamin-c/

https://riordanclinic.org/2014/02/h...s-a-successful-treatment-of-viral-infections/

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/195x/klenner-fr-southern_med_surg-1951-v103-n4-p101.htm

http://www.orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v05n09.shtml

From what I understand chickens produce adequate Vitamin C when they are well. They don't necessarily produce it properly when they aren't well/stressed. With Mareks, chickens probably won't be producing the Vitamin C they require. Perhaps that enables the virus load to take over so quickly? Just trying to think outside the box.

 

[microchick]

Hey, @Wickedchicken6 , you found out where I hang out when I'm not on the Old Folks Home thread. I find the reference to vitamin C interesting. Will definitely look those links up and read them. I'm getting ready to run Corid through my flock starting today. I pump up the dosage to 1.5 or 2 tsps per day for 5 days then 1/2 tsp for a few days. Then I plan to dose the with Terramycin just to make sure they are covered. I still need to use Ivermectin on them but I've come to the decision that I will be using herbs on them once I finish this round of Corid and Terramycin. I just planted a new Rosemary plant and am growing garlic for the first time. Garlic is such a wonder herb. I used it once along with Ginger to overcome chronic stomach problem symptoms that I was having.

@seminolewind wasting is a big concern of mine with my flock. The two hens with the ocular defects along with another hen who is a Speckled Sussex and three roosters are all loosing weight, in spite of me feeding them scrambled eggs and sun flower seed on a regular basis. I also feed Game Bird Finisher to the whole flock as I noticed that many were having problems maintaining weight over the winter their first winter. The extra protein and fat seems to keep their weight up for them with the exception of the ones mentioned. I'm adding Rooster Booster to their water daily from now on. I'm also abandoning my deep litter bedding and doing a complete clean out and spray every other month.

And yes, I've been burying my birds in rows about a foot away from my black berry arbor so their deaths will account for something. Their last contribution is to nourish my plants. They get buried with a prayer that their spirits now can fly free. I've almost filled one entire row now. So sad.

You try to give them the best care possible. See to all their health needs and then something like this happens. It just isn't fair. So far my bantams are doing well. The oldest of that flock is 8 months old now and not showing any symptoms so far although they were raised by a broody and exposed to the infected flock from day one. It's going to be interesting to see if they have natural maternal immunity. As I said, they came from stock that is existing in a tough environment. They free range an Amish farm that is on the opposite end of the spectrum when you think of what an Amish farm usually looks like. The owner runs a small engine business and I swear he has an acre of lawn mowers and other doner type of equipment. He also has a dairy goat operation plus an over abundance of general junk lying around. He more than likely feeds them, if he does at all, goat food or hog food. No worming, no medicines. If you die you get tossed in the nearest ravine. It's definitely survival of the fittest.

Time will tell.

 

[seminolewind]

Hey, @Wickedchicken6 , you found out where I hang out when I'm not on the Old Folks Home thread. I find the reference to vitamin C interesting. Will definitely look those links up and read them. I'm getting ready to run Corid through my flock starting today. I pump up the dosage to 1.5 or 2 tsps per day for 5 days then 1/2 tsp for a few days. Then I plan to dose the with Terramycin just to make sure they are covered. I still need to use Ivermectin on them but I've come to the decision that I will be using herbs on them once I finish this round of Corid and Terramycin. I just planted a new Rosemary plant and am growing garlic for the first time. Garlic is such a wonder herb. I used it once along with Ginger to overcome chronic stomach problem symptoms that I was having.

@seminolewind wasting is a big concern of mine with my flock. The two hens with the ocular defects along with another hen who is a Speckled Sussex and three roosters are all loosing weight, in spite of me feeding them scrambled eggs and sun flower seed on a regular basis. I also feed Game Bird Finisher to the whole flock as I noticed that many were having problems maintaining weight over the winter their first winter. The extra protein and fat seems to keep their weight up for them with the exception of the ones mentioned. I'm adding Rooster Booster to their water daily from now on. I'm also abandoning my deep litter bedding and doing a complete clean out and spray every other month.

And yes, I've been burying my birds in rows about a foot away from my black berry arbor so their deaths will account for something. Their last contribution is to nourish my plants. They get buried with a prayer that their spirits now can fly free. I've almost filled one entire row now. So sad.

You try to give them the best care possible. See to all their health needs and then something like this happens. It just isn't fair. So far my bantams are doing well. The oldest of that flock is 8 months old now and not showing any symptoms so far although they were raised by a broody and exposed to the infected flock from day one. It's going to be interesting to see if they have natural maternal immunity. As I said, they came from stock that is existing in a tough environment. They free range an Amish farm that is on the opposite end of the spectrum when you think of what an Amish farm usually looks like. The owner runs a small engine business and I swear he has an acre of lawn mowers and other doner type of equipment. He also has a dairy goat operation plus an over abundance of general junk lying around. He more than likely feeds them, if he does at all, goat food or hog food. No worming, no medicines. If you die you get tossed in the nearest ravine. It's definitely survival of the fittest.

Time will tell.

Of course vitamins given and stress lessened will increase chances of not dying from the symptoms. It's best to keep them healthy and clean. I have found that if some chickens waste, there may be a chance that it's caused by a subclinical infection, -an illness that's remains with them but just enough to make them unthrifty, not sick, mostly cocci, E.coli, clostridium (enteritis), worms or lice and mite overload.

Therefore, if they are not thrifty, my first line of defense is a cocktail. Usually Tylan and Sulfadimethoxine (kills cocci and some bacteria). or any antibiotic I have on hand and an anticoccidial. No probiotics. No vitamins during treatment. No worming during treatment. Some meds don't work well with these things. I figure since Marek's has many symptoms, if they have no appetite or unthriftiness, I have nothing to lose by treating them for everything else since they are immune suppressed. I have had several chickens respond to the treatment and get well again and gain weight. Immune suppression is a possibility with any bird that's been exposed to Marek's, and that does become a battle with some that do not get tumors or physical signs. It's worth a shot.

Marek's uses the bird's antibody system to manufacture more virus.

I've had 4 Buff Orpington, and a bunch of Polish, and possibly 1 Speckled Sussex that have culled due to obvious Marek's symptoms. (plus more) I had quite a few wasted away before I knew. I had a Buff Orp rooster get the oval pupil and die. I had 3 eggs from survivor Polish get hatched by silkies that lived 8 months and then suffered paralysis.

I do not put much faith in herbs. But I do think anyone should try everything they think of because Marek's doesn't follow any rules. I don't believe anyone who says they "cured" Marek's without a lab report that shows that they are positive for Marek's before and negative for Marek's after their treatment. From a lab that uses PCR testing. IMO.

 

[chickengeorgeto]

"Marek's Mary" ! You had me laughing with that one!

Yes Miss Seminolewind, but you must admit that the phrase conveyed the idea that sick chickens begat more sick chickens.

 

[microchick]

Yes Miss Seminolewind, but you must admit that the phrase conveyed the idea that sick chickens begat more sick chickens.

That's just a freakin' scary, but all too accurate description.

Seminolewind. Where are you finding the Sulfadimethoxine 12.5% at a reasonable price? I'm almost out of Corid. I think I have enough for one round but after that I'll be wanting to switch over to the Sulfadimethoxine to prevent resistance. Can I mix Terramycin with Corid and dose at the same time?

Basically I use herbs as a complimentary treatment in conjunction with modern drugs. I started doing that when I got Lyme Disease and my doctor was into complimentary medicine. I wouldn't think of trying it by itself but along with other treatments I've seen it work wonders. Anything that helps a body fight a disease process is ok IMHO.