Mareks? What to do?

[seminolewind]

Good thought Zrcalo!

About vaccines.

A virus(enemy) will cause your blood to form an Army to fight the enemy (virus). But the problem is the enemy has shown up before the Army has formed . Sometimes the army grows strong enough to defeat the enemy. Sometimes not. Sometimes if the army had been built up first, it may have won the war.

OR

Along comes a "fake virus" that tricks your blood into thinking it's being attacked by the enemy , and the blood grows a huge Army to conquer the real enemy ( virus) , if it should appear. Then, the real Enemy shows up but the Army squashes them because the Army has had time to form before the real enemy showed up.

If the enemy shows up before the Army is formed, the enemy (virus) may win because the Army never had a chance to built beforehand .

To win the war, a fake virus (vaccine) causes your blood to build a huge army prior to the enemy showing up.

That's what a vaccine does. It fakes the blood into growing a big army before the real virus shows up. Vaccinating won't help after an exposure because the army has already been built by the exposure to the real virus. Just not a good army.

 

[Haunted55]

Good thought Zrcalo!

About vaccines.

A virus(enemy) will cause your blood to form an Army to fight the enemy (virus). But the problem is the enemy has shown up before the Army has formed . Sometimes the army grows strong enough to defeat the enemy. Sometimes not. Sometimes if the army had been built up first, it may have won the war.

OR

Along comes a "fake virus" that tricks your blood into thinking it's being attacked by the enemy , and the blood grows a huge Army to conquer the real enemy ( virus) , if it should appear. Then, the real Enemy shows up but the Army squashes them because the Army has had time to form before the real enemy showed up.

If the enemy shows up before the Army is formed, the enemy (virus) may win because the Army never had a chance to built beforehand .

To win the war, a fake virus (vaccine) causes your blood to build a huge army prior to the enemy showing up.

That's what a vaccine does. It fakes the blood into growing a big army before the real virus shows up. Vaccinating won't help after an exposure because the army has already been built by the exposure to the real virus. Just not a good army.

Really great analogy Seminole!! I do have to add one thing though, giving the vaccine after exposure is still a viable way to keep the virus and it's damage down. Look at it as the John Wayne factor in all this. It didn't matter if the enemy was already there, he kicked butt anyways. Will the vaccine do as good a job as John Wayne? I think that depends on the circumstances of exposure, virulence of the strain they are facing and how well the owner takes care of the little things, like litter management. With the threat of Marek's there, deep litter isn't a very good option. Sand is a better choice as it can be raked and sprayed daily with something like Oxine. Not fool proof, but still a lot better than shavings.

Birds there, who have not had the face to face contact would benefit the most, even if they are housed in the same building as the symptomatic ones. It's worth a shot, no pun intended, to try it. There is nothing to lose and if that small percentage of Vets and researchers, who do acknowledge the benefits of vaccination or revaccination after exposure are right....it could save a lot of heartache and grief. I think each one of us has to find our own way with this until a real answer can be found. One thing may work for this one, while it causes severe mutations in another's flock. The only hard and fast 'cure' I've come across is culling and for me it's not even in the room, let alone on the table.

This is just my 2 cents...gained from reading anything and everything on Marek's I can find, personal experience with the type of infection I have here and talking to many people who are either researching or working directly with infected flocks. I saw birds that I knew wouldn't make it, turn around and not only make it through but thrive, as soon as they were able to run with the turkeys. Since the vaccine is live turkey Marek's, what would be the difference?

 

[ShellP]

I got two turkeys yesterday! They are in the run but are too big to get through the coop door. :-/ I also have two babies that I put with the chicks at the barn, so hopefully this will all help. The vet from the state poultry lab came by yesterday and picked up the blue rooster (in the pictures above). That was really hard for me! I still tear up when I think about it. BUT hopefully it will help figure out exactly what I've got going on here.

 

[Haunted55]

I'm sorry. I hope you will get the answers you need from this. The turkeys will help. I didnt even house them together and still don't. I just let them range together outside. It was enough.

 

[seminolewind]

I got two turkeys yesterday! They are in the run but are too big to get through the coop door. :-/ I also have two babies that I put with the chicks at the barn, so hopefully this will all help. The vet from the state poultry lab came by yesterday and picked up the blue rooster (in the pictures above). That was really hard for me! I still tear up when I think about it. BUT hopefully it will help figure out exactly what I've got going on here.

Wow, he came by your house? Never heard of that-good for you!
I think turkeys carry turkey Marek's naturally. Turkey Marek's will give the exposure without infecting them.

Haunted, I think that whether it's the virus, a killed virus, or a turkey virus, they all expose a chicken to Marek's . The goal is to get the exposure without getting the disease. I don't think a vaccine after the fact is going to make a difference, since the exposure was already there. A vaccine wouldn't be growing any different antibodies than the virus itself. Maybe there is something for the John Wayne or "Booster" theory. As much as I could say I disagree, I can't because there's just not enough research or known facts about this disease.

However, with all the experiences everyone has, it's like the virus hasn't really been figured out completely. Like why vaccinated birds get Marek's but not the symptoms that kill them. Or they get symptoms that go away. Or out of a group of juvies, some die from Marek's and some remain alive.

One of my hatches did get a vaccine then a booster shot 3 weeks later. Out of 7, 5 died from some infection , 2 survived, and one of those 2 lived in my bedroom for 6 weeks due to paralysis that eventually went away. Go figure.

 

[Haunted55]

Wow, he came by your house? Never heard of that-good for you!
I think turkeys carry turkey Marek's naturally. Turkey Marek's will give the exposure without infecting them.

Haunted, I think that whether it's the virus, a killed virus, or a turkey virus, they all expose a chicken to Marek's . The goal is to get the exposure without getting the disease. I don't think a vaccine after the fact is going to make a difference, since the exposure was already there. A vaccine wouldn't be growing any different antibodies than the virus itself. Maybe there is something for the John Wayne or "Booster" theory. As much as I could say I disagree, I can't because there's just not enough research or known facts about this disease.

However, with all the experiences everyone has, it's like the virus hasn't really been figured out completely. Like why vaccinated birds get Marek's but not the symptoms that kill them. Or they get symptoms that go away. Or out of a group of juvies, some die from Marek's and some remain alive.

One of my hatches did get a vaccine then a booster shot 3 weeks later. Out of 7, 5 died from some infection , 2 survived, and one of those 2 lived in my bedroom for 6 weeks due to paralysis that eventually went away. Go figure.

Truth to this Seminolewind! Since she already had the vaccine...what can it hurt? One of the Field Vets told me that giving them a booster or vaccination sometimes does more good as it make the immune system really kick into overdrive. Sometimes if the exposure is over a long period of time or one of the mutations, the body doesn't always recognize it is being attacked and vaccinating may be the red flag to help it get the memo. Who knows? As you said...people a lot smarter than I am are researching this and still don't have all the answers. That's why I said it's a personal thing, each of us have learned to hate this disease and want to eradicate it. I think, like the 'common cold', it is always going to stay just one step ahead of everyone's efforts and become the "Grail" of chickendom. We can treat, breed, pray and usually cry. In between we can hold each other up and offer the shoulder when it's needed.

 

[seminolewind]

Yup. I sometimes think that we members are more knowledgeable in some ways. We're doing the hands on backyard flock. I mean, like whooda Thunk moldy bread would one day become Penicillin?

 

[Haunted55]

Yup. I sometimes think that we members are more knowledgeable in some ways. We're doing the hands on backyard flock. I mean, like whooda Thunk moldy bread would one day become Penicillin?

funny...that's what one of the guys in Boston told me and then he quizzed me for over an hour about what was going on here. All we can do is try and move forward, as I learned from you. There really isn't much else is there?

 

[CaCO3]

I'm jumping in here because this thread came up on my Mareks search. I've got a bottle of the vaccine sitting in the fridge, but I figured I missed the window to vaccinate my chicks who are 1 week. I can't get my brain around the 24 hour window. I understand the exposure part, but what exactly is the driving factor behind 24 hours? In mammals there is the interference of maternal antibodies in newborns nursing which is why they have to get multiple kitten/puppy shots, but chickens don't nurse. I know that there is some kind of maternal immunity in chicks but i am not sure where or how that works either. Think I will harass the vet on this topic. If find out any good scientific explanation I can come back and update. My other bright idea was trying lysine supplementation, which is suggested for felines with chronic upper respiratory infections. These are usually caused by herpes simplex viruses. The theory is that lysine suppresses outbreaks by interrupting some part of the virus replication- at the protein level, or something. All I know is that the both the vet and the poultry science person I ran this by said there was no risk in trying it. The extra amino acid would not hurt. I have the powder and put it in their waterer. So that's a "can't hurt to try" suggestion.

Btw I had a necropsy done one a hen, who was vaccinated at the hatchery, and path report showed some Mareks lesions. That was not the cause of death but I got really upset about the Mareks. Was told that the vaccine is not 100% and that also at around 1.5 - 2 years that is when it also may start losing efficacy. If I can find the email I will provide the exact language used.

Sorry to those of you who are dealing with definite Mareks losses in your flocks. Have been fortunate so far in my smallish flock, but have experienced panleukopenia (feline parvo equivalent) outbreak and it is such a strange existence living with a high-mortality, highly contagious and persistent virus. You see germs everywhere! Constantly changing clothes, taking off shoes, etc. the dreaded fomites, you don't want to be a vector, its not fun at all.

 

[Haunted55]

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/lysine-000312.htm

Chicks do have a certain amount of antibodies from their parents. If the parents had been exposed to Marek's and most are by the 1 year mark, that antibody will be passed on. The reason they tell you the first day is the best to have the MD-Vac [turkey marek's vaccine] given is because it is out there and there is less chance of the chick being exposed if it is given as it comes out of the incubator. The vaccine is actually rated for the first 1-3 days of their lives. With hatchery chicks this works great, as they have sterile everything when they are hatching and vaccinating.

Okay, all that being said...lol, so, let's say you buy some chicks and forget or refuse to have the vaccine given at hatch. They arrive and you've had second thoughts. You now do want to give them the vaccine...okay, but now you need to think about what they have been exposed to in their short lives already. The trip from hatchery to your house, who knows how many people have touched that box, what is on their hands or clothes and do they maybe have a flock of chickens themselves? Are their chickens okay? Is it still worth the chance of giving them the vaccine when you get them? I think so. At this point in their lives it would be impossible to expect complete coverage from the vaccine, but those of us who have had chicks vaccinated at the hatchery and then had these same chicks die from Marek's anyways, will tell you nothing is fool proof. I would if I already had it at hand.

The nasty thing about Marek's is it is constanly mutating and as you, me and a whole bunch of others have found out, the vaccine doesn't always work against these mutations. Last year the greatest losses I had were with birds that were given 3 different forms of the Marek's vaccine. Yeah go figure...You also have it in your flock, if the necropsy came back with those results. Will the vaccine work for you? I have no clue! If the parent stock, of these chick, has been exposed to a form of the disease that is similar to what you have there, then yes most probably it will. Unless you have a chick who is compromised in some way. Then all deals are off anyways. If you have a strain that is resistant to the vaccines and i would say most probably you do, then there is a good chance that in spite of giving the vaccine, now or if it had been done at the hatchery, some of those birds will get it and die, some will become so symptomatic they will need culling and the rest will either show no symptoms or they will recover from them. Clear as mud right?

The Lysine idea is a good one. I have used high B and C vitamins here with very good results in some. Enough to make me continue and tell others. It's funny, Lysine used to be a part of the Super B Complex vitamin tablets. I just read the bottle and I see it isn't there any more. Nice of them to remove that. I think anything we can do to help is a good thing. Let's face it....they have Marek's. For a lot of them, it's a no brainer about what is going to happen. To try and fail at this point is all that is left for some of us. Sometimes though, something clicks and it actually works. Maybe not for all, but even if it's only one that makes it, it is worth it in the end. I think I will see if I can find the amounts they can have without the side affects and try it on my survivors.

I am so glad you treat the disease in your flock the way you do. I am constantly telling people that if they find one of these nasties in their chickens they may as well figure they have it themselves. Effectively, we do. Hair, clothes, pocketbook [think about that one...when was the last time you washed everything in that before going out?], even our cars or trucks, you name it we got it. I am constantly afraid of being a Typhoid Mary and spreading the wealth. It's not a good feeling.