Mareks

[Bkaye]

Experiencing all of this, do you think the vaccine lessens mortality or is there not much of a difference?
I'm sorry for your experience, but it's so good of you to share it with others. Thank you.

I believe so. Only some of my original birds were vaccinated. I bought my first from tsc and a few days later ordered more from meyers which were vaccinated. I’ve lost a couple from each group to things I’m sure was other than Marek’s, but I’ve also lost some from each group that I know were due to Marek’s. It’s hard for me to say 100% if the vaccination in my case has helped or not because majority of my deaths have been in my Belgium breeds which are very susceptible. I’ve heard silkies and cochins are very susceptible too but I have both that are unvaccinated and are doing well. The only vaccinated I have are my lf Brahmas.

I’ll also tag @microchick dhe gave me a lot of good advice and encouragement during my diagnosis. She wrote and article about her experience as well.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...-i-learned-to-deal-with-mareks-disease.76944/

 

[Bkaye]

I’ll also say that I have noticed that I have more secondary issues due to their compromised immune system. They seem to get coccidiosis at a drop of a dime and reguardless what treatment I use, I have to use multiple treatments for it to make a difference. This has been confirmed on fecal floats. With each batch of chicks even with treatment and starting early, I still have loses.

 

[2ndTink]

Yeah, I've noticed some very strong opinions on the Mareks vaccine! I read an article somewhere, but couldn't find it this morning of course, that said the vaccine does not lead to more virulent strains, but in the third article I linked below it does show that the vaccinated birds spread more of the highly virulent virus before they died.

Here are a few articles
https://amerpoultryassn.com/2022/07/mareks-disease-vaccination/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-020-0358-3

This one is very interesting
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516275/

I agree with all the articles and posts saying that you need to research and choose what is best for you and your flock. I am choosing to vaccinate all the chicks I hatch, isolate, and put in a new coop in a new area. Is this perfect, no, do I believe I'm doing what I can to have happy, healthy chickens, yes. The losses are hard, I'm just over 50% loss in my silkie flock with my first loss in Nov 2023 and diagnosis via necropsy in December. One thing I just learned this weekend, don't assume Mareks, it could be Avian Leukosis Virus, ALV, I'm seeing it as Lymphoid Leukosis as well. I just re-read my necropsy report and it actually said "highly suggestive of Mareks" but a PCR test was not done. Had a bit of a face palm weekend as I've planned everything out believing my flock has Mareks, I have eggs in the incubator, many from my flock. Mareks cannot be transfered through the egg, hence me incubating eggs so save some of my silkie genetics. ALV can be transmitted through the egg, so now I have to quickly find out for sure which my flock has.

Having learned this, I highly recommend getting your flock tested for ALV! You will want a 100% confirmed diagnosis as this will change how you proceed. Your state lab can probably do the test, or you can use vetdna.com as well. I'm calling my local state this morning.

Not that one is a "better" diagnosis from the other but a few quick things:
Mareks - vaccine available, lives up to 63 months in the environment without a hosts, cannot he passed to the chick through the egg
ALV - no vaccine, "short lived" without a host, can pass through the egg to the chick

I'm not sure I prefere ALV, but it does seem that there is a path to an ALV free flock whereas there isn't one with Mareks. When you read about symptoms for ALV that won't typically lost "classic Mareks" symptoms, but reading posts from people dealing with ALV that's when you'll see mention of paralysis.

Read as much as you can, ask all the questions. I've found some great people willing to share information!

 

[Eggcessive]

Mareks does affect immunity to common illnesses because it affects the white blood cells. Theses 2 articles are pretty informative to learn about Mareks:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq.66077/

https://vetmedbiosci.colostate.edu/vdl/colorado-avian-health-program/mareks-disease/

 

[microchick]

So I’ve had a handful of sick chickens since about July. They’ve either been culled or died. I’ve had some odd symptoms that I’ve come on here and asked about and I had a few lose the use of their legs. My last to die was my only Roo, Riggs . I took him to the vet and after examining him, listening to what’s been happening with my chickens, he guessed that I have Mareks. He said I could have a necropsy done in Pullman Wa after he died and they could examine him, but he said that he’s pretty certain that it’s mareks. Someone told me about colloidal silver and it didn’t work. If you had to guess, what are the odds I’ll lose the majority of my flock? I doubt any of my present chickens are vaxxed, as I’ve lost chickens from each place I purchased chickens from. TSC, North 40 and a local feed store. I’m buying vaxxed chicks this year from Cackle. There is no way for me to sterilize and fully clean my wooden coop, and eventually the chickens will all be around each other, are the vaxxed chickens fairly resilient to Mareks? I’ve seen some discussions where it’s gotten opinionated and downright mean discussing vaccinated chickens, but I feel it’s the safest choice for my chickens. Looking for information
Thanks!

Thanks for the tag, @Bkaye.

@Slicker chicker I'm so sorry. Marek's sux. The end.

But hope is not lost, that is the good news. Your history sounds pretty much a carbon copy of every post anyone has ever made about their experience with the disease. Their birds die, a lot of birds and they aren't knowing what to do or where to turn. And just when you think the worst is over, BAM! A bird ups and dies under mysterious conditions.

At one point in time I too lost approximately 2/3rds of my flock to Marek's when the disease was at it's height as far as losses were concerned.

The good news is that it does get better. @Debbie292d posted a link to my article (BTW, Thank you Debbie, your kind words are much appreciated) and I do invite you to read it.

Concerning my opinion of vaccinating. It's the only safe way for me to bring birds into my flock. I recently read an article on one of the hatchery sites that said if you don't have Marek's on your property not to vaccinate and they gave the impression that if you did it would introduce the disease to your coop as the vaccinated birds can and do spread the virus through their dander even though they are vaccinated.. Hmmmmm. Food for thought but, how do you know if you have the disease if you have never had chickens before? I didn't know but it sure as heck was there and I began losing birds when they were 14 months old to it. Had I known before hand I sure would have vaccinated. But you see my point. Better to vaccinate than not because you never know what is in your area, Marek's wise.

Every bird I've added to my flock is vaccinated. Every future bird I bring in will be vaccinated. After going over 5 years without a death that I could point a finger at and say, Marek's disease, I lost a young cockerel last month under suspicious circumstances. Healthy a month earlier, then suddenly found him knocking on death's door, emaciated, lethargic, feathers fluffed. I tried worming him but no response. When he hadn't moved out of a nesting box for 24 hours, I put him down. No outwards signs of disease, no tumor growth, just failure to thrive and dead.

It hit me hard. The killer in the shadows is still around. My big question at this time is why did this happen? Why this bird? He was from vaccinated stock crossed with resistant Amish barnyard crosses. 4th generation. I had hatched him myself last spring, hand raised him. I have read where the hen passes on immunity to the chick. If the hen is resistant, so will the chicks be. If the hen is vaccinated, the chick will be resistant through the hen once again. My question now is how many generations does this immunity last before it becomes diluted? Genetics are not my strong suit. I'm more of an observer. But this has me curious and I am now watching my 4th generation carefully especially since I lost a few hens this past summer and fall to what I suspect is non Marek's related sudden cardiac death....or is it Marek's related once again? Cardiac involvement is well documented with MD. Has my flocks' resistance reached its limit? Time will tell.

One thing I will stress is don't give up. This year I am adding some White Leghorn pullets to my flock. They will be vaccinated. I'm hoping to cross them with my Egyptian Fayoumi roosters next year and see if they will pick up any genetic immunity from them. My bantam breeding is on hold until I can add some fresh birds to the gene pool, since the birds I lost this past year under suspicious circumstances were bantams and bantam barnyard crosses. Since my barnyard crosses have proven resistance I suspect my weakness is coming from my vaccinated breeding stock which is now 6 years of age and younger. So is the loss of resistance coming from the vaccinated bantams?

Even if so, 5 years is a good long run without any suspicious deaths. So yeah, vaccinated birds rock, IMHO. Vaccinating isn't perfect. You can lose vaccinated birds to the disease but it sure levels the playing field in your favor so you can at least keep and enjoy a backyard flock.

 

[coach723]

Just sharing my experience, and yes, Marek's sucks. If you don't have confirmation, get it. As stated, other things can mimic Marek's symptoms, it's better to know for sure, than to guess. Marek's birds are more susceptible to all kinds of other illness due to their weakened immune systems, so it's best to know if Marek's is the underlying reason for other things, or they are the sole cause.
Whether to vaccinate or not is a very personal decision, I wouldn't criticize either decision, ever. We all come from different places in thought and experience. I am not anti vaccine at all, but I've chosen (for now) to try to breed for resistance rather than vaccinate. I know there are vehement opinions on both sides of the discussion, I'm all for educating yourself as best you can, and making a decision that works for you. My strain seems to be on the milder end of the spectrum (which still means losses ), so my decision is based on choosing to lose sick birds rather than keep them alive to basically spew out virus and perhaps a mutation to a worse/more virulent strain. I'm not suggesting that would work for everyone, just my choice. Again, read as much as you can, and make a decision that fits your world.
I do know that silkies are much more susceptible to the virus, I don't have any and won't get any, for that reason. There are some breeds that are known more susceptible, and some breeds are known less susceptible, but individual genetics is really important. Fayoumi's are supposed to be more naturally resistant, but I have read of people who have lost some. I think EVERY bird has some chance of being susceptible. Genetics in general are really, really complicated and still not fully understood (makes my head hurt!). Resistant birds can have offspring that are not resistant, and it's impossible to predict. None of us likely have access to the resources and $$ to try to do actual genetic testing and track what our breeding is actually doing. It's results based and takes an enormous amount of time. For me, I only hatch from non symptomatic birds. I have one hen that every chick out of her has had symptoms (all hatched before she showed symptoms) so I no longer hatch from her. She is my only feather footed bird, so easy enough to ID her chicks. I have original, unvaccinated birds, and some of their offspring, that have never shown any symptoms, some in the 10 to 12 year old range, including one GLW roo. I lost all my GLW hens, have a couple of GLW/EE crosses left that are non-symptomatic and are in the 6-7 year old range. The only new birds I have brought in since I found out I had Marek's are the fayoumi's I bought last year from Meyer. They are now 1 year old and, so far, none are showing any signs. Fingers crossed. I have endeavored to hatch enough from my non symptomatic birds to keep me going, rather than introduce more birds into the flock with unknown genetics. Though I may in the future, just depends on how my fayoumi's do and how successful I am in crossing some of them with my others with positive outcomes. Eventually I will need to bring in some new genetics, at least a new roo or two. I haven't hatched any from the fayoumi's yet, I usually wait til they are 2 to minimize breeding symptomatic birds, but I may hatch some this year, just to see how it goes. I will be trying to band breeding groups to minimize inbreeding as much as I can, while trying to encourage the more resistant genetics.
Like @microchick , my initial losses where heavier, once that period had passed things have calmed down, I lose a few birds here and there, but nothing like how it started. I have a lot of birds that show occular symptoms, and I find visceral tumors in many I lose. I have yet to see the leg paralysis that is commonly mentioned, in my flock. I've lost a few EE's to it, but over all they have been more resistant, some of those I lost were crosses with other pure breeds in my flock. Pure breeds, in my flock have not fared as well as mixed breeds. I'm not a fan of sex links, but my black sex links have done reasonably well, better than red sex links. But the individual genetics, and the line they come from, can make a difference. When purchasing chicks from anywhere, there is no way to know. The particular strain of Marek's and it's virulence can make a difference also.
Good luck moving forward. I look at it as just another challenge, which I'm managing alright at this point.

 

[Slicker chicker]

I got my Marek’s diagnosis a year ago last January, I’ve lost many birds but I’ve also had birds survive and seem to be resistant so far. Out of my original birds I’ve lost 6, 2 of those were vaccinated. I hatched out 12 quail dancers the September before my diagnosis, I lost all 12 with the last 2 making it a few days before their first birthday. I had a bantam Cochin sitting on eggs when I got my diagnosis, they are a year old today a one lost one so far. I hatched out 3 more about a month later and I still have 2. We received more quail danver eggs and hatched them out around last easter. We hatched 14. I currently still have 2.

I won’t say you won’t have losses because you will. I have learned a lot has to do with what breeds you have as some are more resistant than others. It also depends on how virulent your strain is. On my property I’ve seen it appear as occular, mainly starts out with my vaccinated birds, I’ve had them waste away this mainly happens to my older birds, and I’ve also had the classic paralysis.

What breeds are hardiest? I lost 2 bantam Cochins now and two lavender Orpington and two Brahmas, a prairie blue bell, a Smokey pearl, a Polish, that may be it. And idk if they all died from the same thing. Some had no symptoms of anything. All young.

 

[coach723]

I think silkies, polish and seabrights are known, or widely discussed, as being more susceptible. There really is a long list. I only have one Brahma left, lost all the others. She is the one that every one of her chicks has become symptomatic. I lost all but one wyandotte, others have said theirs have done well. It can be pretty variable, flock to flock, strain to strain, there are SO many variables. I've heard some say that the closer to "wild" or "original" (non hybridized) the better they do, so fayoumi's, game fowl (though I know some have said they lost those too) may be better. The birds touted as more resistant CAN still get sick, but I think the overall percentage is much lower. I can only say what has happened in my flock. I had speckled sussex, one died young from a crop problem (Marek's??- nothing obvious found at home necropsy) and the other two got taken by a fox (really stupid birds). I've never had orpingtons or cochin. There are really no absolutes. The individual genetics are also important, and we just can't know that.
After having fayoumi's for a year, I can say that they aren't for everybody, and things should be considered before getting them. They like to (are DETERMINED to) roam, keeping them confined, particularly in a small space, is a problem. They fly better (smaller and lighter) and are very good at escaping (ask me how I know that!! ). They are noisier than many more common breeds, and mine seem to dig a LOT, so they are going to tear up landscaping. They are more flightly and skittish, and fast. I've never had jungle fowl, but I imagine they are similar.
There are a lot of threads here, I've linked a few below, and a few articles.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/mareks-resistant-chicken-breeds.1508206/

https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq.66077/

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...ding-for-resistance-to-mareks-disease.894589/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6247869/

https://extension.psu.edu/mareks-disease-in-chickens

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6659344/

http://extension.msstate.edu/publications/marek’s-disease-backyard-chickens

 

[microchick]

What breeds are hardiest? I lost 2 bantam Cochins now and two lavender Orpington and two Brahmas, a prairie blue bell, a Smokey pearl, a Polish, that may be it. And idk if they all died from the same thing. Some had no symptoms of anything. All young.

Cochins, Orpingtons, Welsummers and Speckled Sussex come to mind along with Japanese Bantams and as @coach723 mentioned, Silkies.

As far as resistance, Egyptian Fayoumi, White Leghorn and Naked Neck Turkens are the only ones that come to mind at the moment. I don't think anything is 100% when it comes to Marek's Disease.

My original flock was Buff Orpingtons, Welsummers and one Speckled Sussex. All were hit hard for me. But for some reason my BO roosters were hit the worse along with my second generation BO pullets. I lost a beautiful show quality Lavender Orpington rooster when he was just a year old. Watched him flip onto his back and die with my own two eyes.

So far my EF's are doing well as are my EF roosters that I crossed with resistant Amish barnyard mutts. I agree and I've wondered if one of the things that made my Amish barnyard mutts more resistant was the fact that they are mutts.

One thing that I have decided is that your battle dealing with the disease never ends. This past year I lost 13 birds. Some I lost to injuries like broken legs and predators and one to heat stroke. Then there were three pullets I lost to reproductive problems but there are some that have me scratching my head and had my husband asking me if it could have been Marek's related. One of those times I just shrug and say maybe, who knows. The fact that I just lost my oldest hen at almost 8 to old age (RIP Minnie Mouser) tells me I must be doing something right and hang in there so that is what I am going to do.

My momma didn't raise no quitters.

It's a matter of hit and miss finding what is going to work for you but yeah, Marek's is the killer in the shadows that just never goes away and you have to do is what is right for you. Your flock, your rules. Don't let anyone tell you that you are doing it wrong because nobody is in your shoes dealing with the strain of the disease that you are dealing with. Nor are their birds suffering the same results of the disease as your flock is. You do what you have to do and dig your heels in and stick with it once you discover what works for you.

Blessings to all and remember. Never give up and never surrender.

 

[Bkaye]

What breeds are hardiest? I lost 2 bantam Cochins now and two lavender Orpington and two Brahmas, a prairie blue bell, a Smokey pearl, a Polish, that may be it. And idk if they all died from the same thing. Some had no symptoms of anything. All young.

Out of the birds I have my Brahmas have been my hardiest breeds in my lf and my cochins in my bantams. My Brahmas were also vaccinated, they are the only vaccinated birds I have right now.

Belgium breeds for me have been my most susceptible. I have lost a D’uccle and a ton of D’anvers.

I do plan to bring in vaccinated birds next spring. I’ve made a decision to not hatch out or bring any new birds in this year to give myself a break. It has been a very hard and emotional year.